Morris Minor Owners Club

hi thats fine wibble

in actual fact the bottom of the exhaust does touch the bottom of the engine bay floor, so had to flatten the rim of the floor slightly, but of course it will rattle a bit

i think i will see them tom and see what they are prepared to do about it

so we need to look out for suppliers who do the walkers one, i have had walker ones in the past and they are perfect.
i saw someone today who had an old walker exhaust and it clears the engine bay floor by a good 12 to 14 mm

i think its about time we made a serious stand on these things

aupickup wrote: hi thats fine wibble

All printed out ready to take with me, five copies, can't get better value than that aupickup

so we need to look out for suppliers who do the walkers one, i have had walker ones in the past and they are perfect.

I'm sure our usual supplier would be happy to source a better-fitting exhaust if you found where to get 'em from I hope so cos if mine is the same as yours I'll need to take it back and swap it

hi wibble
well this is the point they used to do the walker ones but have now changed to falcon (prob cheaper for them to buy in is my guess )

maybe they could stock both - a choice for the punter - like stocking "new" and "pattern" alternatives

hmm
i would not have thought so
they have charged the punter the same price for falcon as walker
its called profits and blow the punter
i will see if i can get up there tommorrow and see what the problem is with them

and of course many new morris minor owners could be put off by all of the bad supplies we are getting from all of the shops

I've got a couple of exhausts in the garage, both are there because of the first bend being out. When I've got nothing to do, lol, I'll have to modify them. It's all wrong this buying bits and then having to redo them. If only engineering was as easy as media studies we might have stood a chance.

well i am not prepared to pay for something that does not fit

as you know les my circumstances have chaged so £60.00 for an exhaust that does not fit is not on for me anymore

i wonder, exhaust not fit for the purpose intended

Not really sure what the working party will do with your complaints. At the moment I'd say that they will be recorded until the club has decided on how to implement a stratagy and the will to confront the manufacturers ,not necessarily the suppliers, after all they only sell what is available,and if they are good businessmen/women then it is clearly not in their interests to upset customers. I firmly believe that what we are sold is what we deserve,by this I mean that Minor owners in general run their cars on a shoe string,many to the point of neglect then will not pay a sensible price for a good product/part. This has driven the manufacturers to cut corners and hence quality, them low and behold the self same people start to complain about the quality of parts.
Generally the profit margine on parts is slender to say the least, and its only a high volume of sales that allows many suppliers to stay in business.Despite popular misconception too ,there is actually very litlte choice of parts manufacturers. and each supplier generally sells the same parts, unless they have invested considerable time and funds into producing their own products.
Personally we have been dismayed over the last 5-6years at the demise of good quality parts, having to spend excessive amounts of time in making parts fit when a few years ago they would have fitted with minimal fuss, its no wonder that pro rebuilds are becoming out of reach to many simply due to the inordinate amount of time of rectification on new panels.
I intend on gaining the general feeling from the specialist minor restorers, and see if we can bare amy pressure from our side of the fence. If we are successfull I'm afraid that we may well see a sharp increase in the cost of parts, which, when this topic was raised before ,it would seem that most on here would be prepared to accept, so long as the cheap cheerfull and poor quality parts are still available for those who are not.
I hope that the working committee can try to arrive at a fair method to deal with both the poor parts and trader issues. But at all costs this should involve the trade from the outset

point taken jonathon
but why would a supplier change an exhaust supplier where the exhaust fitted to a supplier where it does not fit and still sell the same part for the same price

I firmly believe that what we are sold is what we deserve,by this I mean that Minor owners in general run their cars on a shoe string,many to the point of neglect then will not pay a sensible price for a good product/part.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there.

But at all costs this should involve the trade from the outset

Couldnt agree more Jonathon without the Trade input we will get nowhere fast.

Well I am making this my last restoration, it's becoming a chore rather that a pleasure now, I take all your points on board Jonathan but if something is sold to fit a certain area then it must be just as easy to make the master jig that the panel, for instance, is produced from correct as incorrect, It only needs for this master to be right in the first place.

Beats me, I'm afraid. However as a Nation of none complainers (in general) maybe the message has not been stressed enough to the supplier. If the goods are no good send them back,say why and demand a refund. Remember most major suppliers do just that, they only supply parts, and rarely become involved in fitting, so your input as supplier is most important, otherwise the situation just plods along as if all were fine. Another possible reason could be that of supply. For some reason some suppliers seem reluctant to produce parts , and so the market is starved, suppliers try to fill the void, and maybe, their orders will stipulate that 50-100 exhausts (for example) need to be purchased to cover demand, then low and behold manufacturer A decides to continue production again, but now the demand is less because everyone has stocked up from a different source .
This is the case with panels, but if I told that tale I'd be censored from thios messageboard !!

well of course can not all be as wealthy as you kevin
but arnt minors supposed to be a cheap classic to keep on the road

but other car clubs and makes dont seem to have this problem

seriously though

my point is this, why change a product that fits to a product that does not fit and charge the same price

i for one will not be buying any more morris minors to try and get up to scratch, with all the aggrivasion with spares
and will try and make do with the stuff i have got rather than spend my money on new stuff that has to be altered around, and why should i have to do that anyway.

have not forgotten about chassis legs

we are not talikng about ridiculous prices

we are saying parts should be right for the purpose they are intended for

or indeed yes ridiculous prices cos the parts dont fit


so should i make a staircase without all the parts or make it wrong so it does not fit ???????????????

but other car clubs and makes dont seem to have this problem

I dont know about that but price is still a factor have a look at prices for wings for cars like a Ford Anglia, and the larger ones like the MG and Mini ones are run as commercial operations and therefore have more control over spares and its a fact that like for like parts an MG, owner will expect to pay more than a Minor owner as long as its fit for purpose.

Believe me Dennis, as a bodyshop we have seriously been looking at other markets of classics, generally due to the poor quality of panels, and the impact this has on the amount of labour input we have to give them. We used to trial fit, fettle for a 1/2 hour max then fit. now its a case of having to use one supplier because Heritage or LMC cannot see fit to produce a reasonable quantity at a time. so we are burdened with the Asian panels which are absolute #### and I feel we will possibly take advice as to whether these parts are infact fit for purpose, and the possible implications. On a recent rebuild, we have replaced most of a cars structure, but the inner arches have proven a nightmare. Normally a days work to remove,fettle and final fit an inner wing now took 3 days as the panels were upto 2" short in the radius of the arch, so after 3 days of cutting out the best parts of the original wing, cutting up the 'new' wing and panel beating the damn thing into shape we now have a reasonable job. However we then need to explain that a £100 wing has cost the better part of £600 to fit.
We could have , as some must do , fit as supplied and accept a #### job ,but this is not what we are about, hence my/our frustration at the current state of the parts supply.
Re cost of parts, you will find that good panels on other classics are vastly more expensive than a similar minor one, however we know that MG's are suffering the same plight as ourselves. Unfortunately, good engineering cost money. We looked into producing new boot lids a few years ago, only to be told that the tooling alone would be in excess of £30,000, if you can name one Minor specialist willing to to invest this I'd be suprised as the break even point would be many years down the line. In the case of exhausts, a mild steel one is around £25-30, this really is silly money, and is too cheap even for a massed produced item, once the profits have been removed you are probably looking at a production cost of around £5, so how can one expect good quality, having said this, you should atleast expect it to fit within the cars frame. Again we had looked into producing stainless exhausts, quality items, lifetime warranty etc etc ,but at a buy in cost to us of over £120 how many of you would buy one assuming we applied the usual 40% markup on this.

wibble_puppy wrote:maybe they could stock both - a choice for the punter - like stocking "new" and "pattern" alternatives

Seems the sensible solution to me. When I used to play with Minis there was always the choice of pattern or genuine, with genuine being 50 - 100% more expensive. Cheapskates like me would get pattern, but those with deeper pockets who wanted a better end result went for genuine. I do believe there's room in the market for shoe string and high quality examples of the same product. Though I also believe all products should be of serviceable quality to start with.

aupickup wrote:i wonder, exhaust not fit for the purpose intended

Or exahsut dosen't fit intended purpose! ;)

Kevin wrote:...its a fact that like for like parts an MG, owner will expect to pay more than a Minor owner as long as its fit for purpose.

A recent example being a clutch cover for my 1098 Midget is about £80 from a well known MG (and Triumph) supplier, and half that from ESM! It wouldn't surprise me if they were even from the same manufacturer. Needless to say, if I hadn't lucked across one from a local and decent Minor owner (is it me, or are Minor owners generally just better to deal with?) I'd have been buying from ESM.

On the one hand I feel companies clearly profiteering from owners of certain cars is wrong, but on the other hand if the owners were that bothered about being ripped off they wouldn't let it happen...

jonathon wrote: In the case of exhausts, a mild steel one is around £25-30, this really is silly money, and is too cheap even for a massed produced item, once the profits have been removed you are probably looking at a production cost of around £5, so how can one expect good quality, having said this, you should atleast expect it to fit within the cars frame.

Indeed, I believe even cheapo parts should fit, especially something like an exhaust where there's a reasonable amount of room to get it not quite right and have it not matter.

When it comes to exhausts though, other than having the right bends in the right places how low can the quality go? Poorer grade steel? Lower quality welding and waddign in the box? I don't see how it can really be any worse than the factory original! ;)

Trouble is though with the Minor, there is hardly any original tooling on which to create what could loosly be termed as original. So almost everything is now pattern. Even pattern tooling as in the boot lid example, is prohibitive.There is currently a choice for most parts, its probably just that the general ownership do not realise this, so my advice is to ask the seller their opinion of the products available, and which they would recommend. Or ask one of the pro specialist bodyshops who are well aware of who and which traders/products to avoid.
I also believe that a minor can only be run on a shoe string when its in good servicable condition, to achieve even this status is beyond most owners pockets if the jobs are performed professionally. I feel that the market of ownership will eventually move away from shoe string cars, and the Minor, not necessarily the owners will be the better for it, as hopefully the true value of a good condition car will be reflected in both its sale and purchase value. If this does happen then the market place may well decide/dictate that cheap and cheerfull has no place being linked to the Minor, and hopefully the tide will turn in favour of those of us who want good parts and to be able to provide a good service be it, traders or restorers.
The last working group I attended were keen to look at the parts issue in the future once a viable system of logging reliable data and a form of quality assesment could be relied upon. Trade input on this is vital, but as yet, hardly any traders are aware of the clubs intentions, and on the issue of of a traders list, be it a recommendation of good or ommission of poor traders from a list, this aspect is already causing friction to those already in the know, so if you are attending todays meeting, please make this aspect a priority, I would if I could attend,

all points taken jonathon
and i know all to well about one offs

but an exhaust,
all they have to do to get it right is line up with the manifold and flange and get it through the hole
now surely it cant be rocket science
the hole the exhaust goes through is quite big !!!!!!!! its not like a wing or anything like that

and besides why make it wrong
it takes the same tooling to make it wrong as it does to make it right