Great Starter Problems...

[jackkelleher]

Believe you me, there's nothing I would rather say than "ha, this has all been a joke! Thanks guys..." But if I did I'd be lying and still stuck with a car that won't start on my hands.
Well, there are unlikely to be fuel issues. The tank was nigh-on empty when the car arrived, and I fillled it up to about four fifths full, so any water will be well diluted with petrol, and the carb will be filled only with new stuff. I've checked the float chamber a couple of times, just to check there was actually fuel reaching the carb, when I first couldn't start it. Everything's fine there. I've dried off the sparks and replaced them...
The problem is, in this detective novel there are about three hundred possibilities and it's taking a while to hit on the right one... Please don't stop, people, we'll get there eventually! I'm going to check the timing anyway, just in case customs fiddled with it (I still don't know how they managed to melt every wire in the lighting and starter circuits...) so that's today's job.

[jackkelleher]

Urgent Question!!! When both rockers are up, does that mean both valves are closed?

[alex_holden]

The valves are closed when the arm is roughly level. They're open when the arm is tilted.

[jackkelleher]

All right, thanks. So. The conclusion of my grand foray beneath the rocker cover: Nothing. The timing seems fine. And the firing order is definitely fine... So, I've answered all Willie's questions, and all of them have an answer that suggests the problem is elsewhere. Any suugestions? Please?..

[jackkelleher]

"Abandon Hope, all ye who enter..." Good old Dante. Well, my car has successfully exhausted every idea in the mind of Rob Thomasson himself, so I really am worried now. Does no-one have a vew idea? I've run out of things to test, lost count of the number of times I've checked compression, removed and replaced sparkplugs, pulled the starter and heard nothing more than an insistent turning over. It really just does not want to go.

[jackkelleher]

I have some pictures that may help. How do I upload them?..

[Willie]

Do not despair, we have slowly eliminated a good few possible faults and
we will get there eventually. If the spark,outside the cylinders, is a healthy blue colour then it appears that we have fuel and ignition so the car should start. ( if the spark is a weak orange when not under compression then it may not be good enough). This leaves us with the possibility that the timing is incorrect. The no.1 cylinder is under compression when neither of the front two valves are being operated i.e.
the free play (12 thou") is present. turn the engine until the pointer indicates 3 degrees before top dead centre with the front two valves
showing the 12 thou" free play, and check that the rotor arm is opposite
the electrode for the no.1 plug lead. The points should be just opening
in this position, if not then adjust accordingly. I will send you a PM with my e mail address, if you send me your pics I will put them on this board.

[jackkelleher]

Well, the spark is a weak orange.
Surely if the timing is wrong then the engine will still do something?

[jackkelleher]

What does the flashing globe next to the topic mean? I know red is new post, but what's flashing?

[alex_holden]

Well, the spark is a weak orange.

Try reversing the connections on the coil.

What does the flashing globe next to the topic mean?

I think it means it's a popular topic.

[jackkelleher]

And then attempting a start, or just checking for a better spark? On second thoughts, don't answer that... I'll just attempt a start anyway. Right. Here goes...
Oh, and thanks for revealing the mystery of the flash...

[jackkelleher]

Well, I get no start, but the spark is a healthier looking whitish (not quite ornage or blue...)

[Willie]

Jack, still examining your pics, sixteen large ones will take some checking. I cannot see anything wrong with your basic wiring but the
distributor looks pretty grubby on the base plate and the rotor arm contact point where the carbon brush touches is awful, give it a nice polish in that area. The spring on the vacuum unit appears to be broken?
Would much prefer the various spade connections to be soldered but if those blue clamp things are all you have then so be it. Will check pics further. The sparks should be a fat blue colour when not under compression so it could well be that they are insufficiently strong when in position.

[jackkelleher]

I'll check all that... I don't think the spring is broken, but I'll check. The spark is definitely not fat or blue yet. I'll clean the distributor, definitely.
Thanks...

[jackkelleher]

Well, I've checked and the vacuum spring is not broken. The rotor arm is well polished now... I could solder those spades on, with a bit of time- if it's worth the effort, I'll definitely do it.
If the spark is weak, could it be the timing being out?
I'm pretty sure the spark must be weak, because there's actually petrol on the plugs when they come out! So, the plugs are sparking, there's petrol soaking them; doesn't that mean THE ENGINE SHOULD BE MOVING?

Well, I don't know what to do. Another possibility; is it possible that insufficient fuel might be reaching the sparks, because the fuel filter in the engine is blocked?

I'm tempted to take the car into one of the local mechanics and just give him the manual and let him loose on the car... But I really want to get it started myself, especially after this much help and discussion, it feels like a defeat to give it to someone else. Or is that stupid?

[NZJLY]

Have you checked the spark plugs spark? Had an engine like yours, everything worked, but the new plugs wouldn't spark (faulty - but I didn't use them to check my spark). Changed the plugs and she started first turn of the key.

John

[simmitc]

A few posts back you mentioned that any water in the tank would be diluted by the petrol. Not so, they don't mix, and any water present would always be at the bottom of the tank, first to be sucked through to the carb. Get a suitable container, remove the fuel hose from the carb, and turn the ignition on for a minute. This will allow the fuel pump to run. Be careful to collect all the liquid and then check that it really is clean petrol. Remeber that it could well be dangerous stuff, so take care and dispose of carefully.

[Willie]

Here are Jacks pics.






I wonder if the state of the centre pick up on the rotor arm indicates that the carbon brush is not making good sprung loaded contact.
Jack I would also check the four electrodes in the dizzy cap which pick
up the voltage from the rotor arm. They build up a claggy coating which should be gently removed periodically with a flat scraper(if it isn't new that is).

[wibble_puppy]

Thanks for posting those pics Willie.

It does sound as though the spark could be dodgy.

Here are some questions from a complete novice, which occurred to me as I looked at the first of Jack's photos:

the pic shows the wire coming from the D/S side of the battery and going to some sort of connection plate on the bulkhead.

1. It looks as though one of the fat cables (coming up from the D/S rear of the engine – is it from the starter?) has got partially sliced (or melted?) through, is it intact or does it need replacing?

2. Also should that wire from the battery not be going to a solenoid? (or maybe the arrangement was different for a 1959 car?)

3. Also it looks like those connectors could be a bit grubby, might be worth whisking the wires off and cleaning everything with some nice fine emery paper?

Jack I keep on thinking about how exactly your wires got melted. What else in the car might have got cooked, and damaged, during transit? You’ve said that you had a new battery, was it transported with the car? (I have no idea if this is relevant, I just keep wondering if it could give a clue)

wibble

[alex_holden]

2. Also should that wire from the battery not be going to a solenoid? (or maybe the arrangement was different for a 1959 car?)

The starter switch on the bulkhead performs the same function as a solenoid, except you operate it by pulling a knob instead of turning the ignition key.