Great Starter Problems...

[jackkelleher]

So, this leads on from my previous topic, but it's less open. The car is now finalised as an october '59 2-door, without trafficators. But that's beside my point...
So, there is a spark at the plugs. But the car does not start... The starter motor, also, heats up when the ignition is turned on, though the current is not flowing beyond the SW contact (the CB is dead until the starter is pulled, as normal). However, when one cranks the motor to a certain point current flows through the CB as well, and into the distributor- but only at that point. As one cranks further the current ceases once more. Is this normal?
That's the sum total. The spark plugs are new, new battery, distributor contacts refaced and sparking. at a loss...

[Willie]

Very confusing, but, latching on to the part where you say that current
flows to the dizzy 'when the starter is pulled' you should check that the
thickish brown wire which is present on the starter switch(the one with the thick battery cable connected to it) is connected to the same terminal
as the battery cable FROM THE BATTERY not the one to the starter motor.
If this brown lead is on the wrong terminal you will not energise the coil
until you operate the starter. If this is the problem you would get no
indicator light when you switch on the ignition and NOTHING electrical would work on the car until you operated the starter. The starter motor should not heat up if you just switch on the ignition, and it is not normal for "the CB to be live only when you operate the starter".

[jackkelleher]

Thanks, I have the brown wire connected correctly, so no joy there... It's not normal, you say? That's what I was beginning to suspect. Damn, this is a head scratcher.

[Willie]

OK, check that the cable underneath the car connecting the chassis to the gearbox is in place, it should be clamped under one of the gearbox cross member bolts. You can always run a temporary lead from the engine metal to the chassis metal just to prove this connection but a thin
temporary lead would get quite warm when cranking the starter if the proper earth strap is making insufficient electrical contact. If you switch on the ignition and flick open the dizzy points you should get sparking even without operating the starter, does this happen? In case you are getting confused there will be no 12v present at the side contact on the dizzy with the ignition on until you open the points.( with the points closed the 12v is shorting to chassis which is NORMAL).

[jackkelleher]

So, the earth between the gearbox and chassis is complete.
I can't find anything wrong!

[simmitc]

Ignition timing? Fuel? Compression?

[jackkelleher]

Fuel's fine, ignition timing seems ok... Is there are a good test for compression?

[minor_hickup]

Use the starting handle, can you feel good consistent resisitance as you turn it?

[Welung666]

Use the starting handle, can you feel good consistent resisitance as you turn it?

With the ignition OFF of course! Just in case it fires, snatches and breaks a thumb!

[minor_hickup]

A small price for eventually getting it started

[Willie]

OK we need some answers. Do you get a spark across the points when you flick them apart with the ignition on? If yes, is there petrol on the spark plug if you remove it after trying to start the engine? If yes, have you checked that with the timing marks showing approx 5 degrees before top dead centre the rotor arm is pointing at the electrode for No 1
(front) plug lead WITH BOTH VALVES ON NO. 1 cylinder CLOSED? ( if they are not both closed then you have set the timing 180 degrees out).
The firing order is 1,3,4,2.

[jackkelleher]

Right. I'll try to get through all your questions. Well, there is fairly consistent resistance, although at some points it is appreciably easier to turn. (I have turned it both with ignition on and off, and there is no catch whatsoever... Unfortunately. Plus, there's a one-way system so the crank wouldn't keep spinning if the engine caught...)
There is a spark at the points, and when plugs are removed and the engine cranked (one plug at a time, not all at once) all plugs spark. There is indeed petrol on the spark plugs when they are removed.
How do I know if the valves on No.1 are closed? I haven't checked the timing at all. Is it likely to have changed since the car was last running if it has not been touched (to my knowledge)? I'll check it anyway...
I've been given the firing order as 1,2,4,3 by the Haynes. Is this wrong? I've heard that the rotor rotates anticlockwise. In my car this would cause a firing order of 1,3,4,2 anyway, so I don't know if that's correct or not... Differing sources.

[alex_holden]

When cranking by hand you should feel a strong resistance four times in every two revolutions. The risk with hand-cranking with the ignition on is that it can occasionally "kick back" ie. turn violently backwards - the ratchet does nothing to prevent that. To check if the valves are closed, take the rocker cover off and watch the rockers operating as you crank it. The distributor does rotate anticlockwise. The firing order is definitely 1342, and number 1 is the cylinder nearest to the front of the car.

[jackkelleher]

All right, thanks. In that case firing order is fine.
Kick back? I'll avoid that then...
All right, I'll check the timing. I probably won't have a result for a day or two, as I've never done this before and I'll need to order some stuff as well (still stocking up on tools...)

[Onne]

Where are you based JackkeNeher?

[jackkelleher]

I'm in Princeton, New Jersey, USA, though I only just moved over. I was in Devon before...

[Onne]

That is not round the corner If I was nearer I'd come and help if I am on one of my many journeys :d

[jackkelleher]

God, that would be so great. I'm struggling without resources out here... The time difference is a nuisance, too, because there's only a short period where most people across the pond are available for contact.
Well, I'm going to soldier on, for the love of Morris. I used to have a '62 two door, cream & red, in dire condition as well as my current '59. I got the pair, with the other for spares... I fell in love with the '62 and wanted to restore it, not strip it. Unfortunately, the transport costs were too high to bring a car that didn't run, and had rust holes in the floor, out to America, so I gave it to a friend who says he's restoring it but I gather is having a tough time... He's not the car type. When I'm in England over the summer, I'll probably lend a hand... Just the way I wanted it, a car on either side of the Atlantic to restore!

[Willie]

If the timing hasn't been interferred with since the car was last used then it is unlikely that it is wrong. If the car has stood for a considerable
time the petrol can go 'bad'. since you have sparks and fuel on the plugs it is worth carefully filling the float bowl on the carb with fresh fuel
(only three screws to remove) and trying again. If that does it then either
drain off the old fuel or dilute it with fresh if the tank isn't too full. If the car has stood in the open for a long period it is possible that there is water in the fuel which will reach the float bowl and then prevent the engine from starting so if you look into the float bowl soak up all of the liquid in there before you add new fuel. I would suggest that you also thoroughly clean the plugs and warm then up for a period in case the 'petrol' on them is actually water.

[wibble_puppy]

this thread is absolutely gripping! it's like a detective novel with three hundred detectives and just one dead body.... not that your car is a dead body, jack, it's only sleeping

i do hope you find out what's wrong and i reckon this thread and its predecessor should be printed in full in the club magazine - rob thomasson could take a two-month break

i'm sorry i can't be of any help, jack, but i'm following the thread carefully and all this advice is letting novices like me learn absolutely loads about how to diagnose faults

wibble

ps are you quite sure you aren't winding us up?