Morris Minor Owners Club

Seems I might have come up against blasted civil service red tape

I'm involved in a ground up resto on a pickup. However, I've been told the chassis is off a heavyweight van, the rear axle *might* be off the same vehilce, the cab is off god knows what, the engine is one out a pile as is the box, the front suspension likewise.

As it all has to be above board due to being civil service related (a not for profit project, that is NOT just something to do, thank you very much Mr Suited t****er), is it OK to simply find the correct logbook for the chassis and axle and adjust it to read as pickup (assuming that's an easy changeover) or does it have to go through an SVA? I was told by Mr Suit today it will have to be SVA'd, which I find both a lot of hassle and money (they struggle to provide 15 quid for ruddy chassis paint), as well as somewhat of a damming opinion of my abilities.

Quite frankly, having been told if nothing else it's something to do, and might well end up an ornament, I'm half tempted to just give up and tell thm where to shove it (and lend a hand if required). But before getting too much of a red rage I would appreciate someone with more of a clue than some suited CS manager who sits on his backside all day to tell me one way or the other.

I know many of you have probably done a similar rebuild and simply slapped an MOT on it, and to be honest in this situation that's exactly what I'd do, but red tape and the sheer stupidity of bureaucracy means this has to be complete legit, and I don't know if the common sense approach is the legal one

If it's a Minor then I don't see the problem. The chassis, axle, body etc is of the same type so you are changing nothing effectively. The chassis number is the important number. The vehicle to which this relates is your vehicle. The other parts are replacement spare parts.
The axle makes no difference. I have an Escort axle on my Minor but it's the same TYPE of axle, even if it's from a different car.

If you have the chassis number and it corresponds to the registration number on the log-book (V5C) then that's that.

You'd only need a SVA if you have created a car by altering the types of parts used, not simply substituting them from donor vehicles.

They didn't make quite as many Minor Pick Ups as Beetles, but I think even the Civil Service would be hard pressed to class the former as a Single Vehicle... If they insist it is, could you point out to them that I've got 4?

Well, one small problem is Mr Logbooks (the man who has every logbook for every Minor on site, plus several others for Minors in very small bits) is off, long term maybe even not coming back (can't get a straight answer on that one, being just a mere lacky). I can't for the life of me find the chassis number, which I imagine ought to be on the chassis! It has had a fair amount of repair, so maybe the plate has been lost?

But in effect, if the van logbook correlating to this chassis (avoiding the grey area of finding the logbook for the original pickup chassis, which is outside rusting away) can be found, then a plate can be made that matches it, and bingo, there's no need for SVA? Although of course the logbook will be van, the vehicle pickup...

The problem is at the moment the management (it's an NHS department) don't even know they have an a*se, let alone the usual needing a map both hands and a guide to find it. There's currently no enthusiasts amongst them, and the idiot I argued with today said by law the DVLA should have been told every car in the compound has been scrapped as that's what they are. Well, I happen to disagree, as two of them are still 90% complete, if in need of major work, and the pickup is a restoration. How many people here send the logbook back as scrap on a car that they're storing awaiting work, FFS?

But I digress, basically the current attempt at management is obsessed with doing things by the book, but unfortuantely has only read the front and back sensationalist covers, ignoring the contents entirely. So there's me, an enthusiast who often bends the rules in the interest of preserving old cars, facing a wall of NHS/ civil service/ DVLA red tape sticklers. I need to know exactly where the legal side of this all stands so if I'm right I can take them on and put a stop to all the BS, allowing me to focus on getting the car finished.

So, the points:

No chassis or body numbers that I can find.
Engine out of a pile, can't cross reference it to logbooks as at present there are none.
No logbooks, person with them (who may or may not have sent them off for V5Cs) not around for the forseeable.

As it has been assembled from donor parts, that's half the argument with the management. They say it's not safe unless SVAd, and it's also not legit due to the multitude of donors. As it's an NHS project, likely to be used at least short term by the NHS (and woe betide anyone who buys it, with the corners we've had to cut thanks to their financial BS) it has to be tested as safe, and tested as legit with regards to all paperwork. I say that is a load of old cobblers, and at the very worst it gets the van logbook and if needed the V5 changed to recognise the different back end.

Sorry if I'm going on, only I'm in a very bad mood (as much because of the "hey, it's something to, who cares if it's for no end purpose?" attitude as anything else) and I'm not entirely sure who's right on all of this. The DVLA site is suitably vague, which doesn't help.

In short, if I find a chassis number (where would it be?) can I (well, they) then apply for the logbook, make the engine number amendments, and then have a 100% legal paperwork wise vehicle, which just requires an MOT (and tax/ insurance obviously) to be fully road legal etc?

Many thanks for the answers already

I can't offer legal advice, but my gut instinct is that it can't require an SVA - it's not a special ,one off or anything, and complies entirely with the laws as they were when it was produced. Cam will know the answer to this question - Is it Rosie who deals with the DVLA, and would her help be usful in this situation?

Reading the gov sites it seems an SVA is required when a car has been made from donor parts... So if we call it a pickup then it's a s/h donor vehicle as it has a chassis I believe came off a van, but if we call it that van, then it is no longer a new build with a second hand chassis, but a rebuild of the van with a pickup back end and s/h parts to restore it.

So finding the chassis number (off the chassis, or find Mr Logbook and get it that way) would appear on the face of things enough to get a number plate and give it an identity. As I can claim the suspension is original to the chassis (note the DVLA points system for that), and the cab is a bolt on reconditioned s/h item, I think the idea that any other s/h parts are just replacements of original spec used for repair purposes stands. However, going that route (if possible) does leave the question of reclassifying the vehicle from a van to a pickup - I'm sure people around here must have done that, so hopefully someone will have been through the paperwork process

My gut instinct is if it was mine, I wouldn't be piddlnig around with SVA nonsense, I'd just be digging out a logbook and have done. But given the government's incessant meddling with car rules, and the NHS in the mix too, not to mention managers who have absolutely no interest in these things, I have a nasty feeling about it all. It's common sense (use the grey and be happy) versus red tape hell, IMO.

Fingers crossed the paperwork experts make an appearance

I strongly recommend that you talk to Rob Thomason - He recently did my V765 (for the 54 which never had a V5) and was a very helpful guy.
The club handles problems with DVLA (occasionally someone at DVLA forgot to take their tablets and tries to apply rules which don't apply) and should know the score regarding logbooks.

Personally I would get the logbook for the van and then let DVLA know it was converted to a pickup by removing the bolt-on Van back. Nobody anywhere seems to care about engine numbers - I've bought and sold cars where the engine number doesn't match the logbook and have also updated the engine number on the logbook before or after getting an MOT.
You should find the chassis number on the cab bulkhead for the Van (if the cab is still around) - otherwise you need to find it out by another route.
You need to find the V5 - DVLA updated a bunch of them for me to the V5C (only 2 weeks ago) so that is not a problem. Without the V5 you will be facing a £19 fee. and will never be able to tax the car either.
Chassis plates are available as people sometimes replace them if their original was heavily corroded (one of mine fell off the same year they introduced the chassis number check on the MOT - I only found out 10 years later that the Morris was old enough that the MOT rule doesn't apply ) and they also cost a few quid -
Therefore you really need to try and find the matching logbook and chassis plate.

As for registering a car as scrapped when it is 'work in progress' - Just laugh it off as the guy is obviously a clown. ;-)

As for the SVA - the clown who suggested it didn't realise that the SVA was ever intended for someone who made a good pickup out of one and a half Minors. The SVA is mainly for kit cars to check it complies with vehicle design regulations (no body mounted spears, headlights in the right place etc..). The MOT is the only thing you need for safety after stripping down a Van/Pickup and rebuilding it with a mix of parts.

rayofleamington wrote:I strongly recommend that you talk to Rob Thomason - He recently did my V765 (for the 54 which never had a V5) and was a very helpful guy.
The club handles problems with DVLA (occasionally someone at DVLA forgot to take their tablets and tries to apply rules which don't apply) and should know the score regarding logbooks.[/qiote]

Merde, I'm currently not a member (on my income one club subs a year is almost too much, and I've already got that for my Triumphs ). But handy name to know

Personally I would get the logbook for the van and then let DVLA know it was converted to a pickup by removing the bolt-on Van back.

That would seem to be the least stressful way, maybe... Of course, the van may well have been notified as scrapped or god knows what else, but fingers crossed!

Nobody anywhere seems to care about engine numbers - I've bought and sold cars where the engine number doesn't match the logbook and have also updated the engine number on the logbook before or after getting an MOT.[/qote]

I don't care, you don't care, but when dealing with people with little enthusiasm to see this completed and little knowledge/ interest who have pretty much only read the red tops for all their advice, there can be problems..

You should find the chassis number on the cab bulkhead for the Van (if the cab is still around) - otherwise you need to find it out by another route.

Double merde. The van cab is long since gone, so then it's a matter of using the chassis number off the cab (if that's still there, never seen it!), which gets a lot murkier again. Whereabout on the bulkhead should I be looking? There has been quite a bit of metal chopped out and (badly, uinfortunately) replaced over time.

You need to find the V5 - DVLA updated a bunch of them for me to the V5C (only 2 weeks ago) so that is not a problem. Without the V5 you will be facing a £19 fee. and will never be able to tax the car either.

We're a long way off worrying about tax - Been waiting four months, then another three on top, for money for trunnions and brake bits (and they say it'll have to go through an SVA to prove it's safe, after trying to get us to reuse badly stored s/h brake parts!). But knowing all the paperwork is straight ready for the day it can be taxed is what we're trying to do at the moment. The 19 quid isn't too bad (might pay it out and get myself the 2 door that's there, before something bad happens to it), but without any reg number, chassis number, original engine number or logbook we might be a bit stumped!

As for registering a car as scrapped when it is 'work in progress' - Just laugh it off as the guy is obviously a clown. ;-)

I know, but that's just the sort of arrogant (and he was very over this subject) attitude that gets right on my angry button. One of the 2 doors really is probably only really fit for scrap, but there's a difference between fit for, and has been, if you see what I mean The other one drives, not bad for a car that's been scrapped, eh? In fact, it's probably illegal to tell the DVLA you've scrapped a car when it is, in fact, complete and running...

As for the SVA - the clown who suggested it didn't realise that the SVA was ever intended for someone who made a good pickup out of one and a half Minors. The SVA is mainly for kit cars to check it complies with vehicle design regulations (no body mounted spears, headlights in the right place etc..). The MOT is the only thing you need for safety after stripping down a Van/Pickup and rebuilding it with a mix of parts.

Same clown. His argument being as it's a bitsa it needs it for the NHS to be able to use it, as it needs to be proven safe. I pointed out the MOT should be suffice, at which point he said it's not worth the paper it's printed on (which I agree with, but I wonder if that means all the trust vehicles get an SVA whenever they're repaired?). I think unless someone can come along and prove it needs an SVA, Mr manager/ clown go go whistle on that one after the advice I've had here

Going to be fun trying to tie down a logbook to it (seeing as logbook man isn't expected to appear anytime soon), but I seem to recall having an unmarked vehicle inspected and registered (as a historic I would hope!) is a fairly straightforard and not overly expensive excersize.

Seeing that you have used a large amount of donor parts, I would have thought that your NHS management would be pleased!

the way things have been up there for quite a while, I'd be more than willing to implant the management with them!

Preferably sideways...

A positive note is that if a car is off the road then it does NOT have to be declared as "scrapped", no matter what the condition. However, it does have to be declared as "off road" - the "Statutory Off Road Notification". There is no charge for this (apart from the stamp) and its main function is to preserve the registration number - but that's difficult if you don't know what it is.

Plus point two: If a car is restored it requires an MOT and not an SVA. Even if it didn’t, it’s good to have someone else check over your work. If you’ve done a good job then you should be proud to show it off, and it will be appreciated by the examiner. If it’s a bodge job then it should be condemned. We all have to share the roads, and I want to see safe cars out there with me.

As to perceived problems with the NHS management, then no matter how much I love Minors, I'd be much happier if the NHS management spent their time administering the Health Service. There probably is too much bureaucracy, but no matter what you think of them, there are a good many well qualified and pleasant people in the NHS. It's not their fault that there are too many rules and targets - that's down the incompetent government that we've got.

It takes two to make an argument. You’ve made your views about “them” very clear. Have you considered what “they” think of you? Perhaps a change of approach might help. It’s amazing how successful a charm offensive can be – perhaps you could get a personality transplant?

Whatever else, good luck with the project, I hope that it succeeds.

simmitc wrote: that's down the incompetent government that we've got.

I'd have thought it was down to a number of incompetent governments of varying hues and shades - in fact, I'd argue that quite forcefully if this were a forum for political discussion...

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simmitc wrote:A positive note is that if a car is off the road then it does NOT have to be declared as "scrapped", no matter what the condition. However, it does have to be declared as "off road" - the "Statutory Off Road Notification". There is no charge for this (apart from the stamp) and its main function is to preserve the registration number - but that's difficult if you don't know what it is.

Indeedy. I know this, people who are interested in old cars know this... But some people view old cars gathering dust/ rust as "scrapped", no matter what the car is, or what its future may be. The latter seemed to be the general attitude today

Plus point two: If a car is restored it requires an MOT and not an SVA. Even if it didn’t, it’s good to have someone else check over your work. If you’ve done a good job then you should be proud to show it off, and it will be appreciated by the examiner. If it’s a bodge job then it should be condemned. We all have to share the roads, and I want to see safe cars out there with me.

I couldn't agree more that someone should double check mine and others involveds work. While I don't have a great deal of faith in a lot of MOT testers, it's another chance for something to be spotted that was missed along the way. And it's a good enough, IMO, test of the safety critical areas. One thing that annoys me is had this been a 40 year old car that had simply had a service (and not a new brake system, steering parts, etc) the argument would never have happened. I have no objections all round to an MOT, and not just because it's needed to use the thing afterwards

As to perceived problems with the NHS management, then no matter how much I love Minors, I'd be much happier if the NHS management spent their time administering the Health Service. There probably is too much bureaucracy, but no matter what you think of them, there are a good many well qualified and pleasant people in the NHS. It's not their fault that there are too many rules and targets - that's down the incompetent government that we've got.

I can't go into the full details of the part of the NHS this is, for hopefully obvious reasons. However, it is part of the local NHS trust that runs not for profit projects. In essence it's a fantastic idea that can bring major benefit to those who need it. But in reality it's been run into the ground, one of the best members of staff (who was running the project at the time I got involved) has left/ on leave for reasons unknown, and now it's got spreading manageritus. This means people totally unsuited to the sort of work involved have been drafted in because they could run an office elsewhere. They have no experience, interest or knowledge in the areas the site covers, and a mix of red tape, hyped up soundbites, and general ignorance (understandable, in as much as they're the wrong people for the job put there by others even further out of the loop) leads to these differences. I don't doubt they have to be sure they've got their backs covered legally, but I do doubt the way they believe it has to be done.

It takes two to make an argument. You’ve made your views about “them” very clear. Have you considered what “they” think of you? Perhaps a change of approach might help. It’s amazing how successful a charm offensive can be – perhaps you could get a personality transplant?

I'll address this by PM, as it's not something I feel should be discussed here

Whatever else, good luck with the project, I hope that it succeeds.

Me too. I'm putting my all into this so as to actually resurrect something I believe to be worthwhile. Not to kill time on a boiling hot day!

PACKED UP.....I am not familiar with the LCVs but,if you still have
an engine bulkhead, the chassis number WITHOUT any prefixes, will
be stamped on it level with the hole through which the bonnet release
rod appears and slightly to the right of it. ( the numbered plates at the
top right of the bulkhead are NOT chassis numbers).

Ahh, another place to loo, thanks

I've seen on ESM van/ pickup plates that are riveted to the inners of one of the doors, needless to say I have no idea if they're still there. Then there's the plate people on here have said to look for, which isn't there...

And now hopefully a number stamped into the cab (bear in mind it's a seperate body/ chassis, which seems to make finding the ID a problem). We don't have the original cab, but we do have *a* cab (back into the grey we go)... Which has had the engine bay primered, hammerited, and now chassis blacked. So it's going to be fun trying to find anything stamped into it! ;)

It's your best bet for the number, though there doesn't seem to be any guarantee that it'll be there either. The plates seem to vary in terms of appearance and positioning (on the door, on the bulkhead etc etc) and VERY often simply aren't there at all - I've always assumed that they have been kept for souvenirs.
Sorry, none of that's very much help - I can only advise CAREFUL removal of the paint in the bay, it's easy to sand/brush away stamped numbers if you attack things with power tools...
Good luck.

An update to this - Management apathy and general red tape hell (mainly to do with welding on site) are still the curse of this project, but I dug out a number plate today buried under a load of rotten van rear panel work that was being cleared out.

I've checked the plate on the DVLA site, and it comes up as an Austin 1098cc, blue, registered in 71. Now some of the van panels chucked out were blue, and if I recall correctly the chassis in use for the pickup was off the blue van. So is there a chance this is the right registration? I don't think there'd be any other 1098 A series vehicles ever chopped up up there, let alone blue ones, but I'm not sure about the Austin bit. I know commercials were sold as Austins, but was that the case even on the last years of production?

Unfortunately I can't get any info on the model this plate ties to (which would answer the question fully one way or the other), but if LCVs were sold as Austins in 71, the fact it shows as blue, off the road for 17 years, and a 1098 would all suggest this is indeed the correct plate (for the chassis and axle, so covering the DVLA points requirements), and puts paid to teh whole silly SVA "find an identity" saga

Packedup wrote:An update to this - Management apathy and general red tape hell (mainly to do with welding on site) are still the curse of this project, but I dug out a number plate today buried under a load of rotten van rear panel work that was being cleared out.

I've checked the plate on the DVLA site, and it comes up as an Austin 1098cc, blue, registered in 71. Now some of the van panels chucked out were blue, and if I recall correctly the chassis in use for the pickup was off the blue van. So is there a chance this is the right registration?

Yup, every chance. From memory, the 'Austin' thing was a feature of late LCVs.

bigginger wrote: Yup, every chance. From memory, the 'Austin' thing was a feature of late LCVs.

Now that is very good news

The only other 1098 Austins I can think of around 71 would be the Austin 1100 and maybe early Mini Clubman 1100s. As far as I know there's never been any up there at all, let alone chopped up, and as far as I know saloons of that age would be Morris, not Austin. If that (saloons being Morris in 71) is true, then woohoo!! Looks like we have a winner!

Will have to check the dark blue bonnet that's kicking around, as I think it's the same shade as the panels that were chucked. If it has a badge on it (I'm sure it's an LCV one) and it says Austin, then I think that should definately be case closed!

I'm also going to try and find all the other number plates that are around and reference them, out of curiosity and also to double check my theory. Here's hoping everything ties up, and there aren't another 2 or three blue Austin 1098s in the mix when I check!

The badges were often changed, fo some bizarre reason. Check the front grille, if you can, that generally isn't changed, so can be a real give away. Just going to find a couple of pics



Right - that's an Austin grille, in case you didn't know - but presumably you know what the Morris one looks like... The original engine (if you still have it) would have had 'Austin' on the rocker cover, where the Morris ones have (guess what) 'Morris'..