1098 cc getting more difficult to start from cold

[eng622]

For some time there has been a problem in getting a rapid start from cold unusual for a moggie. The engine cranks over fast so not the battery but often only starts the instant the key is released from the start position. It does need choke to start even in the summer. Adjusted the choke control to get faster idle but has not helped. How much you pull out the choke appears to be part of the problem. The timing is correct it has electronic ignition and the carb is set up fine for normal running. When it does not start it appears to get over chocked as when it does start needs to be revved up as very lumpy. Could the problem be electrical and maybe the electronic ignition. From what I know such ignition systems work or not, nothing in between.

[Bill_qaz]

Check you are getting battery voltage to the coil when in cranking engine position as well as ignition on position as you say it starts when you stop cranking. It could be flooding during cranking because it's not firing the ignition when cranking.

[ndevans]

I've found in the past that simple things like dirty, corroded or tarnished battery terminals can prevent starting even though the engine turns over well.

[Chief]

In relation to corroded etc. battery terminals, I recently saw a trick I'd never heard of or seen before - pour hot water on battery terminals (or possibly just the positive?), and it cleans them near-instantly:
https://youtu.be/WpHTKOIJtYU?t=843

[moggiethouable]

Aged earths have caused me issues, headlamps are a typical example, so I would also start with battery terminals.

[ndevans]

In relation to corroded etc. battery terminals, I recently saw a trick I'd never heard of or seen before - pour hot water on battery terminals (or possibly just the positive?), and it cleans them near-instantly:
https://youtu.be/WpHTKOIJtYU?t=843

Sounds dodgy to me, I wouldn't advise that. Easier and safer for you and the battery to just remove the clamps and give them and the terminals a good clean with a bit of wire wool or fine wet & dry. Make sure the clamps are properly tightened when you put them back, and cover them in some vaseline to prevent future corrosion.

[ndevans]

Another thing to be mindful of is the connection between battery terminal clamps and cable. Unless it is the modern sealed type, these can work loose over time. While your at it, check the integrity of all the connections in the path from battery to starter and as mentioned above, the earth clamp.

[mowogg]

I find mine need a bit of throttle when you are turning over the starter. Have you tried this?

The lumpy initial running could well be a consequence of slow starting

[Andmurph]

You say that the sometimes the car only starts when the key is released from the start position. For the first fourteen months of ownership we had this with the pickup. Recently we had an issue whereby we couldn’t insert the key to the ignition barrel, getting stuck on petrol forecourts. During the investigations to the cause I cleaned up the ignition switch and contacts and was surprised when for the first time the switch worked as it should and the engine started with the key in the start position, before letting go.
It may be worth checking that all of the connections to the ignition switch are good and very clean.

We had to replace the ignition switch and steering lock as the barrel was the problem and is not replaceable on its own on a pickup. The new replacement also works as it should.

[Chief]

Sounds dodgy to me, I wouldn't advise that. Easier and safer for you and the battery to just remove the clamps and give them and the terminals a good clean with a bit of wire wool or fine wet & dry. Make sure the clamps are properly tightened when you put them back, and cover them in some vaseline to prevent future corrosion.

Your method is the only one I ever knew and used. That said, the female mechanic (she's also an LA university or college "shop-class" teacher) on the videos is very health and safety concious, yet even she was calling it a valid method so perhaps it really isn't as dodgy as it appears to the both of us.

[geoberni]

For some time there has been a problem in getting a rapid start from cold unusual for a moggie. The engine cranks over fast so not the battery but often only starts the instant the key is released from the start position. It does need choke to start even in the summer. Adjusted the choke control to get faster idle but has not helped. How much you pull out the choke appears to be part of the problem. The timing is correct it has electronic ignition and the carb is set up fine for normal running. When it does not start it appears to get over chocked as when it does start needs to be revved up as very lumpy. Could the problem be electrical and maybe the electronic ignition. From what I know such ignition systems work or not, nothing in between.

As soon as I read this, 2 aspects leaped out at me, as highlighted.


1 - When a Battery is cranking a heavy load, the terminal voltage drops; it's a characteristic of all batteries, it can't be avoided.
That's the only thing that is in favour of those who say to fit the biggest battery you can.
If the battery is ridiculous large cranking capacity (not physical size) then the cranking of the Minor is going to cause less of a voltage drop...
But it's only in the case of a poorly maintained electrical system that it comes to the fore.

2 - Electronic Ign is designed to work at 12v, with a +/- of perhaps 1.5v, depending on the design.

So what's happening in simple language is the engine is taking everything the battery can provide to crank it over, resulting in the voltage dropping below what the electronic ignition needs; in the fraction of a second where you release the key and momentum/inertia is still turning the engine and the Dissy, the terminal voltage rises and the electronics gets out a couple of pulses out to the Dissy, Voila !

Go out to the car, spin it a few seconds to generally make sure it's lubricated and ready to start and release the key.
Leaving the Ign On, try it on the starting handle, so the Ign system has full voltage.

Your problem could be the battery, or dirty connections somewhere, anything to aggravate the drop in voltage getting to the Coil.

[ndevans]

Sounds dodgy to me, I wouldn't advise that. Easier and safer for you and the battery to just remove the clamps and give them and the terminals a good clean with a bit of wire wool or fine wet & dry. Make sure the clamps are properly tightened when you put them back, and cover them in some vaseline to prevent future corrosion.

Your method is the only one I ever knew and used. That said, the female mechanic (she's also an LA university or college "shop-class" teacher) on the videos is very health and safety concious, yet even she was calling it a valid method so perhaps it really isn't as dodgy as it appears to the both of us.

I think the risk would be of cracking or splitting the battery case with hot water, meaning a potentially unhealthy leak of acid.

[ndevans]

Another thing to consider, is something causing the engine to be harder to turn over than it should? That would cause a higher than usual current to flow to the starter motor, hence a larger voltage drop.
Are you able to swap the electronic ignition for a mechanical distributor easily?

Probably a wild card, but I had problems starting that turned out to be due to the water pump not turning.

[simmitc]

Everyone is going down the electrical route, and I agree, but whenever anyone mentions lumpy at startup, I always run a compression check. Takes only a couple of minutes, and rules out sticking valve, head gasket, cracks, etc. There can be more than one fault in play!

[svenedin]

Agree with everything that's been said except I personally would not be pouring hot water anywhere near a battery.

If it was my car I would check everything ignition and fuel related systematically and in turn.

I think the answer has already been given and it is related to dirty contacts somewhere, maybe ignition switch but could be anywhere else in the ignition circuit. Berni with his logical consideration of voltage drop whilst cranking and then when releasing the key from the crank position momentarily the voltage rises and bang, it's started.

Go through all of this:

1) Remove battery terminals, clean posts and contact surface of terminals with emery, replace, tighten, apply vaseline or special battery terminal protector gel.

2) Check connections at solenoid. Clean as necessary.

3) Remove distributor cap. Look with a bright light for cracks inside. Check the HT lead posts and the central sprung loaded carbon contact. Clean off any burning or scorching. Likewise distributor rotor. Remove rotor and whilst you are there, apply a few drops of light oil to pad. IF it's a Hall effect system, check the magnetic ring is properly seated on distributor spindle.

4) Remove spark plugs in turn. Inspect. Fouling? Clean, gap properly (25 thou or can be 30 thou with a high powered coil)

5) Check, tighten, clean coil connections.

6) Take off a spark plug lead from the plug. Place end near block. Crank engine with ignition on. Good spark? Or buy a cheap set of 4x neon spark testers.

7) When engine running and properly warmed up (AFTER all of the ignition checks) check and adjust fuel mixture as necessary.

PS: charge the battery before starting

If no luck with this report back......

Good luck

Stephen

[svenedin]

Regarding the choke, this is entirely normal.


The choke IS needed with a stone cold engine even in Summer. Engines vary with how much choke is needed to start them and this comes with experience. Pull the choke out fully if in doubt. As soon as the engine catches listen to the note. If it sounds really rough, reduce the choke and it will probably improve. A mixture that is way too rich will give very rough running. As the engine warms up, gradually reduce the choke.

My procedure with a totally cold engine is: choke fully out, start, as soon as engine catches reduce choke until engine sounds OK. It always runs a bit rough until it warms up properly.

Stephen

[philthehill]

Boiling water poured over corroded battery terminals neutralises any corrosion instantly. This is a time honoured process and it works very well.
It only gets rid of the corrosion, it does not add power to the battery.

[philthehill]

As regards the starting - make sure that the carb linkage is adjusted/set correctly (as per the wksp man) in that pulling the choke out does open the throttle sufficiently.

[myoldjalopy]

Boiling water poured over corroded battery terminals neutralises any corrosion instantly. This is a time honoured process and it works very well.
It only gets rid of the corrosion, it does not add power to the battery.

Yes, as advised to me by an old-time mechanic many years ago. I have done it in the past, though not on my current car, because it has never suffered from furred-up battery terminals......

[svenedin]

Boiling water poured over corroded battery terminals neutralises any corrosion instantly. This is a time honoured process and it works very well.
It only gets rid of the corrosion, it does not add power to the battery.

Yes, as advised to me by an old-time mechanic many years ago. I have done it in the past, though not on my current car, because it has never suffered from furred-up battery terminals......

Fair enough but I'd definitely take the battery out of the car first and I'd rather use a damp cloth instead.

Stephen