saint rod of weld

[guydenning]

Well I've more or less taken the decision to convert and become an acoloyte of the great Saint Rod of Weld...
Does anybody know of any idiot-proof online resources for welding for beginners? Also I'm stuck on what welder to buy... there are these gasless welders - are they any good? I'm planning to practise by just welding random bits of metal to each other, take them outside and beat seven bells of bejeezus out of 'em and hoping I can't break the weld. Anyway, I cede to the greater authority of you weldy type dudes out there and a concensus of advice please dot dot dot

[paulk]

Ahhh another disciple!

Although I've not looked for a while I never could find a decent book. I was taught by an old welder (about 2hrs clipping me around the ear) and then lots of practice (about 7 years so far).

As to welders i'll leave that to others. I cheat by using a MIG at work so the gas cost isn't an issue for me, but i've not heard much good being said about the gasless sets.

Main thing with welding thin stuff is cleaning back the underseal/paint/filler/rusty cr*p. And I assure you one day I will listen to my own advice.

Paulk

[chickenjohn]

Good idea learning to weld- you can then fix just about any Mog- time permitting.

As my Traveller (pictured) passed its MOT due to my own welding, I feel humbly qualified to re post my welding tips (although I claim not to be an expert- just a very enthusiastuc amateur):-

"I was in almost the same position as you- traveller needed welding, needed to learn to weld! In fact thats what i've been doing a lot of over the last year. Cutting, shaping metal, welding...

First of all- don't get a gasless welder- I've heard they are oops I typed a naughty word, the Clark turbo 250 te is a good one, 150 amps gives plenty of power in reserve.

I'd say you also need to get a few other things:-

1. pub gas bottle- can be refilled for ~£20 (needs a regulator-about £50 ish)
2. angle Grinder with cutting discs (I like 1mm cutting discs)), and grinding disks.
3. decent weldin g helmet, by that I mean an automatic one that darkens when you strike the arc- well worth the £100.
4. Decent leather gauntlets.
5. decent fire retardant cotton overalls
6. fire extinguisher
7. a spot weld cutting drill is ideal if you decide to remove the whole inner wing.
8. Lots of clean degreased steel of about 1mm thickness to practise on.

It took me about two years of occasional practise, and lots of asking tips and advice from professional welders in the local MM club, before I felt confident enough in my welding to work on my car.

Practise lap welds (a small overlap between the two pieces of steel to be welded) to start with as they are easier to master without blowing holes. Then try butt welding. (where the two edges of the pieces are "butted" together).

On the turbo 150 TE, I set the voltage to 2/ minimum for thin metal (inner wings etc) and two maximum for thicker stuff (chassis). wire speed to around 4. Don;t overtighten the wire feed rollers, set the co2 on your regulator so when you pull the trigger you can just hear it hiss. Use 0.6mm mig wire and 0.6mm contact tips. Have a supply of contact tips because they do knacker up and need replacing.

Steel needs to be absolutely clean and de greAsed and free of paint, underseal, rust, waxoyle ect before welding it. I use a rotary wire brush attachment on my grinder which takes everything off in seconds, leaving you with bare steel. If there is an overlap or you are welding the last piece closing a box section, then use weld through primer (available from frost.co.uk) this is zinc based and you need to let it dry before welding with it.

What else?? dont try to weld to pitted metal, even if all the rust is removed, as you will end up blowing holes.

Take your time, and don't skimp on materials, equipment or preparation time! "

Note- some folks prefer 0.8mm wire and 0.8mm tips, or sometimes 0.8mm tips with 0.6mm wire, if it works then fine, but I use 0.6mm tips and wire with no problems- its important to keep the tip and nozzle clean and clear using a small screwdriver to remove the splatter and a wire brush to keep the copper welding tip clean. I also like dipping the MiG welding tip in antisplatter paste when its warm. Do this and the mig wire will rarely stick to the tip and the tip will last a long time. BTW, everyone who welds in the East Kent branch that I've spoken to also prefer 0.6mm wire and tips for car body work. Set the gas so when you pull the trigger you can hear a faint hiss- that is enough. No gas leads to weld porosity (holes in the weld) and a weak welded joint- not good!

Its often better to replace complete panels on the car, for example whole sill pieces than weld in patches, especially if the panel on the car is extensively rusted- it will last longer, look much better and possibly increase the value of the car.

These repair sections are available from the usual parts suppliers and cost (usually) between ~ £5- £20. Often better to use the whole panel than weld a series of patches.

You need to make sure that mig welds are continuous- ie no gaps in order to pass the MOT, unless the panel was originally spot welded, in which case spot welding will be OK- in my case on the Traveller, I drilled holes and plug welded the inner rear wing to the chassis- provided the welds are good and enough of them the MOT station should pass the car- mine did.

Oh, and once you've welded box sections, protect the inside of them with waxoil or dinitrol to prevent rust re-occuring.

To learn to weld you first need to get the machine set up properly, a good idea to join your local club and get a friendly professional welder to show you how to set up your Mig. I learnt the hard way, from reading a book and pestering Martin (one of the clubs professional welders) with loads of questions. In the EKMM club, we recently had a "welding afternoon" - Martin gave a lesson- we had 7 Morrises turn up and 14 club members, everyone had a good few goes. If you can persuade your local club to hold something like this it would be a good idea.

You need to develop the skill of holding the torch at the right angle (90 deg to the plane of the work piece, about 70 deg to the direction of the weld bead) and to get a "feel" for the right distance to hold the torch and how quickly to push the bead of weld. Too slow and you will burn holes in your car and too quick and you'll get poor penetration. Again, much better to get your friendly local welder to show you this.

Once you get it though you'll start to develop a "feel" for the technique. Personally, I try and get my welds as neat as possible! If its all going well, you'll hear a sound not unlike that of frying bacon!! You will also see evidence of penetration on the otherside of the piece you have just welded- discolouration of the steel and weld bead.

When fitting a patch or new panel, first of all tack the piece in place- a tack is a quick~ 1 second weld to give you a small blob of weld to hold the piece in place. Put tacks in diagonally across the piece to avoid distortion from the heat of welding. Then weld the piece (or patch) in using lines of weld as long as you can manage without going off the line. For instance if welding in a square repair patch to an inner wing (after cutting the rust out as a square hole- cut a piece of steel of the same size as the hole) to tack, first tack one side in the middle of each side, then the opposite side then the corners etc then other tacks in between these initial tacks untill you have tacks about 1-2" apart holding the piece in, then weld in a bead to join the tacks.

A bead is the name of a line of continuous weld. Its perfectly acceptable to use the grinder or flap wheel to "dress" the weld after its cooled, i.e. gind it to make it look neater. Dont remove all the weld, though as this may compromise the strength of the weld.

others may like to chip in but thats what I can think of off the top of my head!

good luck and enjoy it!!

[rayofleamington]

I also like dipping the MiG welding tip in antisplatter paste when its warm. Do this and the mig wire will rarely stick to the tip and the tip will last a long time

I changed to 0.8mm wire instead of 0.6mm - since then I've never had the wire stick to the tip. By contrast the 0.6mm wire + tips were a real pain in the rear! I had to change tips occasionally and this soon wrecked the thread in the torch etc..
I really wish I'd never used 0.6, but then I'd never know how much better off i was with 0.8

As for a car with underseal - this stuff is a nightmare, and seems to leave a residue that makes the mig weld really spattery, then you don't get a real weld, so it is highly frustrating. As a beginner, welding nearby underseal is something to avoid if possible.

[paulk]

Agreed Underseal sucks

In fact If you clean back 2-3 inches from your weld you'll still get problems with it catching light and it never fully comes off.

By the by I use 0.8mm wire and tips, never seem to stick.

Paulk

[bigginger]

All true so far. My tuppence worth? Get a big bottle of argoshield gas from the BOC centre on St Phillips - much cheaper in the medium/long run than little bottles of CO2, and (I can't remember why, it's a long time since I used CO2) better. Oh, and yeah, 0.8's easier/less sticky too.

[JillBeynon]

A tentative word in support of the Gassless welder, if you do your welding outside then you don't have problems with the gas shroud being disturbed by the wind. What may put you off is the cost of the wire, about 4 or 5 times the cost of a normal wire, and it only comes in one diameter (0.8mm).
An angle grinder is most essential, I reckon that for every 5 mins. spent welding, the grinder is in use for 25 mins. A 1:5 ratio - possibly a new way of measuring competance ( or incopetance in my case )

[Cam]

Like Ray, I used 0.6 and had loads of problems with sticking. Changed to 0.8 (and a teflon liner) and it was brilliant although sometimes it would stick but not very often. When I was recently welding thick stuff (2mm fence posts) I knackered the 0.8 tip and only had a 1.0 tip spare so used that and it's been EVEN BETTER! so I'm sticking to that formula now.

Welding with gas is pretty useless even in a light breeze which is where gassless comes into it's own, but to be honest (for me) I do very little welding outside the garage and when I do I just wait for the breeze to die down. With no breeze the gas is better than the gassless, but I'm biased as I was taught welding with an industrial gas MIG set at age 13 by my dad who believed in perfection and had steel toe cap boots!

I use this model:



And it's quite possibly the best single piece of kit i've bought. Plus all the bits are available as it's a common make.

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.as ... 2029&g=105

Grinders are essential (and a good supply of grinding and cutting discs) oh and a sanding attachment or flapwheel for fine finishing of welds that don't need filler on top (if you intend doing top bodywork repairs).

Basically though, go buy a welder and get some scrap steel and go for it! Make lots of mess and practice really does make perfect with welding.

Of course now you'll have no excuse not to fill your garden with scrap Minors!

[bigginger]

...he already has! Would you be interested in purchasing a BIG SIP welder - does gas/gasless, but needs a new torch and possibly (can't think what it's called) cable that runs twixt torch and welder, so cheap if you want to find those. It'd do to learn on, but isn't as heavy duty as some. I'll get the specs tomorrow.

[bigginger]

Oops, didn't. Sorry to cunctate, but I'll try again tomorrow.
a

[guydenning]

woo - message board's back! What's SIP then? And I do think that the money spent on a course would be better spent on a welder and one of them funky auto darkening visor m'jubbies and just getting on with it. I know people who've regretted welding improperly protected.
I'll happily learn by their mistakes.
Oh - Singer clutch is working - better than ever according to the old man - I'm feeling very chuffed with doing that for him... cheers Andrew! And for my troubles, at a weekend car show jumble thingy my parents bought me a pair of trafficators (one slightly different than the other but I reckon it's for an older Morris) an a HUGE BMC Morris Minor workshop manual - spiffing eh?
Much better pictures than the Haynes - and as yet I haven't encountered the legend ' reassambly is simply the reverse of the previous process' - but I haven't looked that hard yet...

[chickenjohn]

I think this "0.6mm is bad" seems to have become a little bit of an interet myth, possibly centred on this forum. I don't doubt the experiences of welders here who use 0.8mm tips and wire, but feel that the symptoms are from different causes than merely the wire/ tip size.

The copper tip welding itself to the mig wire is often due to a build up of splatter on the tip/ nozzle or holding the torch too close to the work piece (or a combination of the two), not due to the size of the tip/wire, although larger wire/tips may be more forgiving.....

I found that keeping the tip clean with wire brush and the nozzle clear with small screwdriver, combined with the occasional dip of the nozzle in antisplatter paste, and holding the mig torch at the correct distance from the work piece has completely eliminated wire stick in my case, and I'm using 0.6mm wire/tips.

The welders I know who have 20+ years experience each and who prefer 0.6mm for car body work gave me the above tips and as evidence that they work- I present this picture of a 1969 traveller which recently passed its MOT due to my welding using 0.6mm tips/wire.

OTOH, the same welders did say on the subject of using larger tip/wire sizes "if it works, it works" although they gave a caution that using too large a wire may be beyond the power of a hobby Mig set and lead to poor penetration.

[pskipper]

If you do decide to do a course, Bridgewater college runs a good one and they'll tailor it to your needs. I found it cheeper to drive from Warminster to Bridgewater of a sat. morning than to do it at any of the local colleges!

[Cam]

I think this "0.6mm is bad" seems to have become a little bit of an interet myth, possibly centred on this forum. I don't doubt the experiences of welders here who use 0.8mm tips and wire, but feel that the symptoms are from different causes than merely the wire/ tip size.

It's no myth matey! 0.6mm for me was awful to weld with, but having said that I did a fair bit of welding with 0.6 but 0.8 was easier and fed nicer. It's not an internet myth either! Most of the people I have spoken to about it have never used the internet!

The copper tip welding itself to the mig wire is often due to a build up of splatter on the tip/ nozzle or holding the torch too close to the work piece (or a combination of the two), not due to the size of the tip/wire, although larger wire/tips may be more forgiving.....

Actually it was the failure to feed smoothly that caused me to change, not the sticking of the wire to the tip.

The welders I know who have 20+ years experience each and who prefer 0.6mm for car body work gave me the above tips and as evidence that they work- I present this picture of a 1969 traveller which recently passed its MOT due to my welding using 0.6mm tips/wire.

Yep, I too have been talking to welders pretty much all my life (my dad being one for around 40 years) and his mates too. Basically they laugh at our 'hobby' MIG sets anyway as the quality is very poor compared to their industrial 3 phase monsters. This seems to be the main reason for the sticking and the larger wires seem to feed better as they are stiffer.

Oh and although I have absolutely no doubt as to YOUR welding skills, an MoT is NO proof of welding skills! I have seen some absolutely shocking welding jobs that have passed MoTs...

OTOH, the same welders did say on the subject of using larger tip/wire sizes "if it works, it works" although they gave a caution that using too large a wire may be beyond the power of a hobby Mig set and lead to poor penetration.

Yes, agreed for a tiny hobby set, but for a 150 AMP set it's not really an issue. Like you I do most of the welding on 2 min and it's absolutely fine and penetrates a treat.

But it works, and (for me and a few others it would seem) 0.8 works better than 0.6 so I'm using 0.8!!

[guydenning]

Bridgwater eh? that's a luvverly drive... if I suddenly develop a huge flushness in the wallet department I shall investigate - ta

[chickenjohn]

The wire feed problem may be due to not having either the right size groove in the roller, or the roller tension being set incorrectly.

So, for instance if you have a 0.8mm groove in your roller, then it wont feed properly with 0.6mm wire, changing to a 0.8mm wire will work perfectly with a 0.8mm groove. I found that once I had learnt how to set the pinch roller tension correctly the wire (0.6mm) fed perfectly well. BTW, I have the same welder as you- a Clarke turbo 150TE, although mine has rocker switches rather than the one rocker switch and dial that yours has- good machine! and reccomended by a professional welder, and it does work great.

Having said that, I do have some 0.8mm tips and wire, I think I'll go and have a play. I'm intrigued to see how different it is with different combos of wire size and contact tip.

"Oh and although I have absolutely no doubt as to YOUR welding skills, an MoT is NO proof of welding skills! I have seen some absolutely shocking welding jobs that have passed MoTs..."

Thanks for the compliment! although that is true, much MOT welding is crap, many of the old repairs I cut out of the traveller were very poor, and most of the existing welding on my next project caused Martin to laugh when he saw it! I'm intending to go to the website rally and you are welcome to see what I've done on the traveller there.

I think though that Guy should not get too hung up about wire size, 0.8mm or 0.6mm, if it works, it works!, the main skill to be mastered in welding (aside from good preparation of the work piece and setting up your Mig correctly), is getting that "feel" for the technique, its about hand-eye co-ordination type stuff and getting the distance from torch to work piece and speed to moving the weld just right.

oh, BTW if any 0.8mm guys out there have spare 0.6mm rolls of wire or 0.6mm tips that they don't need anymore- I'd be pleased to relieve them of their burden at the website rally!

Its not your wire size that matters, its what you do with it that counts! ;)

[rayofleamington]

I think this "0.6mm is bad" seems to have become a little bit of an interet myth, possibly centred on this forum. I don't doubt the experiences of welders here who use 0.8mm tips and wire, but feel that the symptoms are from different causes than merely the wire/ tip size.

I've also heard this from non internet people, but never paid much attention to it until my local place ran out of 0.6 wire so I bough 0.8 and some new tips - I wished I'd done it years earlier.
My welder has a feed wheel roller that you swap over to change between 0.6 and 0.8 so I know that is not the issue. With the 0.6 I increased the tension on the roller to its maximum but it didn't improve.
It probably varies between types of welder and maybe the proffesional sets handle the 0.6 much better than the DIY kit! My feed wheel for the 0.8 is knurled making it grip the wire better, and the tiny mark on the wire may help to constantly ream the tip (I'm just guessing).
Yes - welding the wire into the tip is made more frequent by having the torch too close, however I still got it when holding the torch further away. Never had it since changing to 0.8
These 'experiences' of people with DIY welders all sound far too similar to be coincidence (if I was a betting man I'd bet it is not coincidence) , although I don't doubt the experiences of the proffesional guys using different welding kit.

Based on the experience of everyone who has actually used 0.6 and 0.8 in their DIY welding kit I'd recommend that a beginner steers clear of 0.6 - even if it doesn't make a lot of difference.

My only problem now is to remember which angle to have the torch to avoid blowing holes in the thinner metal.

[Cam]

The wire feed problem may be due to not having either the right size groove in the roller, or the roller tension being set incorrectly.

I'd agree but I have tried lots of different tensions and the correct groove has been selected!

I have the same welder as you- a Clarke turbo 150TE, although mine has rocker switches rather than the one rocker switch and dial that yours has- good machine! and reccomended by a professional welder, and it does work great.

It IS a good machine (in my opinion) but it's not in the same league as a professional setup. I have used the professional ones and they are an absolute dream. Perfect wire feeding, LOADS of power, lightweight trigger, loads of gas pressue etc. The 'professionals' that I have spoken to about the 150TE say that it's exactly what it says: A DIY welder and not a professional unit.

I'm intending to go to the website rally and you are welcome to see what I've done on the traveller there.

Brilliant! It would be nice to meet up and have a poke around. I'm sure it's excellent work as you are much more likely to make a perfect job if it's your car and a 'labour of love' as opposed to a quick patch for someone else's MoT work!

I think though that Guy should not get too hung up about wire size, 0.8mm or 0.6mm, if it works, it works!, the main skill to be mastered in welding (aside from good preparation of the work piece and setting up your Mig correctly), is getting that "feel" for the technique, its about hand-eye co-ordination type stuff and getting the distance from torch to work piece and speed to moving the weld just right.

Absolutely. We were just trying to be helpful to Guy by passing on our experience so that he does not have to get stuck later on like we did. But at the start, yes, just practice a lot to get the technique.

Its not your wire size that matters, its what you do with it that counts! ;)

[jonathon]

Quite agree with you Cam regarding Diy v pro welders, the difference is vast. Learners are often doing themselves a disservice by using inferior( I use this term loosely) equipment, they can become disillusioned by their lack of abilities ,when its really the inability of the machine to be able to produce the goods. Its like buying the cheapest spraygun and paint and expecting to produce a show winning finish. I realise that there are those on a budget when it comes to Minor diy, and if this is the case then I would suggest the hire route, where better equipment is available.
If you are new to welding and you find the wire burning back onto the tip, use a larger size tip i.e wire size 0.6 use a 0.8 tip. Also check the diameter of the end of the shroud, if this is small it will contribute to your problems. Set the wire tension so that when you pull the trigger and hold the wire, i.e stop it feeding,the tensioning wheel should just spin and the wire stop feeding. Always buy good quality wire, not random wound rolls, and keep the lead to the gun as straight as possible.

[chickenjohn]

Guy, how are you getting on with the welding??? Leaving details (such as wire/tip size ;) aside)

Have a go- practise lots.
Find a welding guru- to show you what to do.

Good, luck and have fun!