Jumping out of 1st on Steep Hills

[svenedin]

Had a great day today at the Edenbridge and Oxted Agricultural Show. Lots to see and do and my Morris was joined by several other Minors as classic car exhibits.

Unfortunately, not such a great time on the way home. The GPS took us via a particularly stupid route, probably due to heavy traffic on the main roads. This kind of route I call a "GPS special": very narrow country roads and tortuous directions.

We came to a hill that warned of 20% gradient (1 in 5) and we struggled. The hill got steeper and I suspect at this point 1 in 4. Even 2nd gear was not low enough so I had to stop and do a hill start in 1st. We pulled away successfully but very rapidly the gearbox jumped out of 1st with an alarming bang. It then did this several more times. We had collected a lot of traffic behind so we could not reverse down the hill and it seems like we were not going to be able to proceed up the hill. Not good. I then managed to get the car to stay in 1st but only by holding the gearstick forward. After the steep hill the gearbox behaved perfectly as if nothing had happened.

So now it looks like gearbox work is the next thing and not further cosmetic work. Annoying!

On a positive note, the timing chain cover work I did yesterday seems to have stopped the oil leak for now.

Stephen

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[svenedin]

Any thoughts on this problem? The gearbox was a reconditioned unit supplied by ESM in December 2022. It has probably only done about 10,000 miles since then.

I know that usually jumping out of 1st gear is due to internal wear in the gearbox. This seems a bit unlikely unless the gearbox was rebuilt with second hand parts that appeared "good enough" but are not up to the job of working under a heavy load such as a hill start on a steep hill with a somewhat portly passenger....


The gearbox has no other apparent issues. It has never jumped out of any gear in normal use but it has jumped out of 1st on a steep incline about half a dozen or more times now. No metal particles evident on changing the gearbox oil last time or any significant particles on the powerful magnetic drain plug.

I did a bit of research and one suggestion is worn gearbox mounts allowing the gearbox to twist excessively when delivering a high torque. Is this plausible and worthy of investigation or is it just a gearbox out job?

Stephen

[svenedin]

I had an e-mail exchange with a gearbox expert who advertises in Minor Matters. They said that gearbox builders use serviceable second hand parts due to the high costs of new parts. It seems likely that the problem is with the 1st/2nd synchro hub or the selector mechanism/detent springs or both. An exchange gearbox can be supplied (at extra cost) with brand new first gear, reverse and lay gear.

There is no great urgency. The car is fine for bimbling about but is not currently fit enough for serious trips. It's an irritating fault because it's not easy to justify the expense for a fault that only occurs in specific and relatively unusual circumstances.

Stephen

[arjay]

Mine used to have a semi-helpful fault. On a brisk start in first, it could occasionally flip straight into second. Great if it had been consistent but it didn't always make the jump into second, leaving me in limbo,so I changed the box.

[mike1864]

I wouldn't worry.
The same happened to me when my SatNav unexpectedly took me up the 1 in 4 Porlock Hill.
With both hands needed to steer the bends, I got my wife to hold the gear stick in first.
There's been no issue in the subsequent ten years.
So I reckon our gearboxes are simply not specced for such inclines.
Rather than rebuild/replace the gearbox, never go up a >20% without a passenger .

[Myrtles Man]

So I reckon our gearboxes are simply not specced for such inclines.

Mmm, don't know about that; v.steep hills aren't really a mo0dern invention, viz.:-


https://www.facebook.com/peakdistrict.o ... 522147320/

[philthehill]

Go up the steep hills in reverse as they used to do way back.
There used to be a very steep hill leaving Freashwater East in Pembrokeshire. My father used to go up that hill in reverse in his Ford 8 ,stop halfway up in the old quarry to let the car cool down and then continue to the top of the hill still in reverse. Unfortunately for the passengers they had to walk up. Many years later drove up the same hill in a Vauxhall Astra and wondered where the hill had gone. Of course it was still there but the modern Astra did not even blink.

[les]

I wouldn’t jump (see what I did there) into changing a gearbox, not much fun. See if it plays up under normal use for a while.

[svenedin]

I wouldn’t jump (see what I did there) into changing a gearbox, not much fun. See if it plays up under normal use for a while.

Thank you. It did it on Minors on Tour back in May. That was the first time it had happened. I assumed we had asked too much of the car because it was heavy for a holiday trip. It was rather embarrassing happening on a steep road in the centre of Honfleur in France. Then it did it again on a steep road up from the beach. Both times hill starts in 1st. Nothing at all between May and August until yesterday again on a steep hill in 1st but not with a particularly heavy car this time.

I don't think I could face swapping a gearbox myself so that further adds to my reluctance to swap it because the labour charge from ESM might be quite high. On the other hand, they might be sympathetic on the labour charge given the gearbox has not lasted well.

Stephen

[Mervin]

Just to go off on a tangent, way back in the late 1960's, four of us (adult males) toured Scotland in an Austin A30. Even four adults, and associated baggage, was a bit too much for it's massive 803cc !
Don't ask me where it was, but we came to the very steep upwards gradient. The driver took a run at it, but the old car said, no thanks, not for me. Three of us passengers had to get out and push/assist the poor thing up the incline.

[svenedin]

Just to go off on a tangent, way back in the late 1960's, four of us (adult males) toured Scotland in an Austin A30. Even four adults, and associated baggage, was a bit too much for it's massive 803cc !
Don't ask me where it was, but we came to the very steep upwards gradient. The driver took a run at it, but the old car said, no thanks, not for me. Three of us passengers had to get out and push/assist the poor thing up the incline.

I have had similar experiences in "Xavier" my Morris. When I was 17 or 18, having passed my test, I had 4 lads in the car (5 including me) when we attempted Gypsy Hill which goes up to Crystal Palace. The car at that time had a clutch that would tend to slip so we ground to a halt. All the passengers had to get out and push and once I got going I could not stop until over the top of the hill. My friends had to walk quite a long way!

I was a bit stressed during my experience on Sunday but none of the cars behind hooted in frustration or tried to overtake. They were very courteous and patient.


Stephen

[svenedin]

Good news on this. The supplier of the rebuilt gearbox has agreed without quibble that this shouldn't be happening and will fix the gearbox free of charge.

Stephen

[svenedin]

Everything is now fixed. In the end the misbehaving gearbox was replaced with an off the shelf reconditioned gearbox as it meant I could have the car back sooner. The bad gearbox was not original to the car so it made no difference to me.

The garage did manage to reproduce the fault and said that what they noticed was that the gearstick would slowly creep backwards until it suddenly jumped out of 1st gear.

I drove back about 60 miles in dreadful weather just now but it was actually a pleasure. The new gearbox is so much better. It's quieter, the gear changes feel more precise and it almost always goes into 1st whereas the old box often refused.

When the gearbox was being changed it was noticed that the clutch linkage was sloppy from wear and the bronze bush had disintegrated so that is all much better too.

Another thing that was noticed was that a rear hub lip seal was leaking. I had changed these only about 8 months ago. As I had unblocked the axle flange drain hole the oil leak did not contaminate the brakes. It was concluded that the axle tube is probably worn so a Speedisleeve was fitted as well as a new lip oil seal.

Stephen

[svenedin]

Had a lovely drive to Gatwick Aviation Museum today for a branch meet (Surrey Hills Branch and West Sussex Branch). Photograph behind an Avro Shackleton Mark 3. This has 4x Rolls Royce Griffon engines and 2x Armstrong Siddeley Viper turbojet engines in the outer engine nacelles.

The new gear box is so much better and combined with the worn parts of the clutch linkage replaced the car drives beautifully.

Stephen

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[svenedin]

I had my Morris MoT tested today as I do every year. Passed with no advisories.

The MoT test centre staff are very nice helpful people. I asked if they could adjust the headlights and they said yes of course. I took the headlamp bezels off and then they showed me the beam image on the beam testing machine. I could see the beam level and the "kick up" which is to illuminate the verge and road signs on the left with dipped beam. In fact, only a small adjustment of one headlamp was needed. I have LED H4 headlight bulbs in Wipac Quadoptic reflectors. These rather expensive LED headlight bulbs give a very good beam pattern and easily satisfy the MoT requirements for correct alignment and beam pattern. LED headlights are permitted in a reflector not originally designed for an LED bulb provided the car was first used prior to 1st April 1986 AND the beam pattern and alignment are satisfactory.

I could have fitted H4 Halogen bulbs of course but really I think they would be better with relays fitted and that is too much for me.

Anyway, this isn't about headlights! The very helpful staff let me examine the car underside whilst it was up on the ramp. I found a small exhaust blow where two parts of the exhaust join (one pipe slides into the other pipe and is secured with a clamp) and I noticed several oil leaks. The timing chain cover leaking oil again after being dry for perhaps a week; the refurbished gearbox leaking oil from the side inspection cover and from a round cover underneath the remote housing; the differential looking somewhat wet with oil but not entirely clear where it is coming from. Otherwise all very solid and good.

After the MOT I supported the silencer on a jack and disconnected the other 2 parts of the exhaust, cleaned the pipes with steel wool, smeared on some exhaust assembly paste and did everything up again. All seems good.

As to the gearbox, I am going to have to go round and nip up the various nuts as it is leaking where there are gaskets. I would very much hope that this will completely cure the oozing of oil.

A friendly MoT tester is a great asset! How I wish I had a 4 post lift at home.

Stephen

[svenedin]

I put the car up on axle stands at the front and went under the car today to try to sort out the refurbished gearbox oil leaks.

There was oil leaking from the gearbox side cover and also from a circular cover under the gearbox remote housing. None of the nuts were tight so I nipped them all up. Luckily they are all 7/16" AF spanner so there was no getting up and down off the floor for different spanners.

Having done that I then wondered whether the nuts holding the gearbox to its extension were tight and sure enough they were not. Unfortunately then I started feeling a bit giddy from all the twisted head movements under the car so I had to call it a day.

Tomorrow I need to see if I can tighten the nuts between gearbox and extension that are right at the top. I am not sure whether it is possible to reach them from under the car.

It seems all these fixings were never nipped up! Mind you the gearbox chap was well in his 80's when he retired so maybe he forgot. It's no big deal really. Whilst I was under there I could have fitted the rose-jointed clutch linkage kit that I received from Declan Burns but actually the linkage is fine for now so now hurry on that.

Stephen

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[svenedin]

All seems dry now having cleaned off the leaking oil. 500 mile refurbished gearbox oil change due soon.