Engine stopped.

[Mervin]

Something very strange happened, yesterday, when out for a short spin in the Minor. The engine stopped/lost power very briefly (1098cc) and unexpectedly. Didn't stop the car, it was that brief. It was running perfectly before and after. Checked it at home both yesterday and this morning, instant start and runs fine.
It has a fairly new points operated SU fuel pump, a fully overhauled Distributor Doctor 25D and vacuum advance unit. That has DD points, rotor arm, cap and condensor etc..
I pumped some fuel into a clean container, this morning, crystal clear, no water, debris/sediment.
Visual inspection reveals everything is as it should be. Unlikely, but I tested the ign. coil 2.7Ohm and 9kOhm, primary and secondary respectively.
The HS2 carb. was fitted about 18 months ago, ESM recon./exchange unit.
I haven't checked the distributor internally yet.
Any ideas/suggestions would be appreciated.

[svenedin]

Hard to say but a transient loss of an electrical connection would be my best guess. Are the high tension leads good? What about the King lead from the coil? Is it tightly connected? Possibly dirty connections at ignition switch. Check battery terminals are clean and connections tight. Sometimes wires start to become disconnected or break from Lucar connectors and it isn't obvious. The only way to check is to measure resistance. Usually it's dirt or corrosion though.

Stephen

[geoberni]

I agree with Stephen, I'd discount anything fuel related and concentrate on electrics. I can't think of any Fuel issues that could give what you've described.
It has to be a momentary electrical interruption somewhere.
The Coil reading you have for the Primary seems a little low, I'd expect somewhere between 3.0 to 3.5 Ohm, but that might just be the make of Coil you've got.
I'd be making sure connections in the Ign LT side are clean and tight and monitor it, i.e. take for another drive and see what happens.
Sometimes you just have to wait until something more substantial happens.

[moggiethouable]

DST-107.jpg (1.59 MiB) Viewed 15849 times

have you checked this little dicky ?
Item number 7, part number DST 107.
Can make and break in a second, then works fine again, for a while.

[Mervin]

Thanks for the replies. As suggested it probably needs driving until it "breaks" permanently! Hopefully not too far from home. I do have breakdown cover. Yes, I agree it's something electrical. Yes, I have experienced intermittent no ignition issues with that item 7 l.t. lead.
I do have an ammeter fitted and it crossed my mind, because of something that happened some years ago, when there was a total electrical loss just as I entered my garage. Positive earth. I had used an inline connector on the brown wire which normally feeds the control box A terminal from the battery negative. From the connector I extended the wire to the ammeter then ammeter to A. That connector had failed. Now there's a continuous feed to the ammeter then to A. Everything goes throught the ammeter, non ignition switched and ignition switched. Without researching the internals of a d.c. ammeter, I wondered if there could have been a momentary "open" internally? It is the modern "Smiths" branded (Caerbont Automotive Instruments Ltd.).

[svenedin]

My car is positive earth too but I don't have any extra gauges. If you suspect an issue with the ammeter (which I presume is a standard moving coil device) why not disconnect it and see if the issue goes away? Total electrical failure is usually a battery terminal problem or the earth from the battery to the side of the battery box. It never ceases to amaze me how a car can be immobilised just by slightly loose or corroded battery terminals.

Stephen

[moggiethouable]

The DST 107 makes and breaks with engine shake, I removed mine and placed the meter on it, it read fine, but, wobbling the cable produced the fidgety needle on the meter.
On the distributor it looked fine.
Anyway, mine is now replaced and I carry a spare, so I will never need it.
My car is still positive ground too.
I would recommend everybody puts a new one in as a matter of course.

[myoldjalopy]

One thing not mentioned yet - is the dizzy cap held on firmly by the two clips? Once I went out in the car, all was fine for miles then, on returning home, car started missing and nearly conked out. A quick look under the bonnet showed I had not put one of the clips back properly after a recent service, but it took a sharp bend on a hill for the problem to manifest itself.

[svenedin]

The DST 107 makes and breaks with engine shake, I removed mine and placed the meter on it, it read fine, but, wobbling the cable produced the fidgety needle on the meter.
On the distributor it looked fine.
Anyway, mine is now replaced and I carry a spare, so I will never need it.
My car is still positive ground too.
I would recommend everybody puts a new one in as a matter of course.

This is what can happen with what I call a "floppy" Lucar connector. It happened to me with the white/black wire that goes to the Low-tension connector on the distributor that you mention. When examined, the Lucar spade connector on the white/black wire felt floppy and when I went to fit a new connector I found that almost all of the little strands in the wire had broken which is what made the connector feel "floppy" on the end of the wire. I cut the wire back and fitted a new connector and all was well again.

Stephen

[myoldjalopy]

"I found that almost all of the little strands in the wire had broken which is what made the connector feel "floppy" on the end of the wire. I cut the wire back and fitted a new connector and all was well again."

I have suffered this and I suspect many others have too. Easily overlooked.

[mike1864]

Another possibility is an intermittent wire break inside the coil.
I once suffered a permanent stoppage from this, a whole year after a temporary one randomly resolved itself.
Substitution with a good coil of course cleared it, and a hacksaw to the faulty one revealed the expected disconnection.
One (non-invasive) way to identify this is to firmly tap (hammer?) the coil from several different planes, and see if it the ohm-meter's needle twitches from its 3 ohms.

[geoberni]

Another possibility is an intermittent wire break inside the coil.
I once suffered a permanent stoppage from this, a whole year after a temporary one randomly resolved itself.
Substitution with a good coil of course cleared it, and a hacksaw to the faulty one revealed the expected disconnection.
One (non-invasive) way to identify this is to firmly tap (hammer?) the coil from several different planes, and see if it the ohm-meter's needle twitches from its 3 ohms.

I had that same break...viewtopic.php?p=636467#p636467

[mike1864]

I knew I'd seen a similar picture before!
My own 71 Traveller doesn't want to start after the winter, and - at the risk of hi-jacking this thread - I'd love some thoughts.
Nothing had been done to it since it last ran in November.
The engine turns OK.
The battery is a good one (now!)
Petrol gushes out the hose going to the float chamber (when disconnected!).
12 volts are reaching the coil.
The coil measures 3ohm primary, 9kohm secondary. The primary takes 3.5A with the points closed.
The contact side of the coil gets alternately grounded and gets pulled to 12V as the starting handle is turned (compression felt).
The dist cap is clean, and the centre brush is intact and measures OK to the coil.
I get a spark on the #1 HT lead.
I've just replaced the rotor arm and capacitor with Distributor Doctor parts.
The plugs are intact, gaps look OK, but they are all black and wet (petrol).
The carb dashpot is topped up.
Fitting my spare coil didn't help.
What have I missed?

[svenedin]

I knew I'd seen a similar picture before!
My own 71 Traveller doesn't want to start after the winter, and - at the risk of hi-jacking this thread - I'd love some thoughts.
Nothing had been done to it since it last ran in November.
The engine turns OK.
The battery is a good one (now!)
Petrol gushes out the hose going to the float chamber (when disconnected!).
12 volts are reaching the coil.
The coil measures 3ohm primary, 9kohm secondary. The primary takes 3.5A with the points closed.
The contact side of the coil gets alternately grounded and gets pulled to 12V as the starting handle is turned (compression felt).
The dist cap is clean, and the centre brush is intact and measures OK to the coil.
I get a spark on the #1 HT lead.
I've just replaced the rotor arm and capacitor with Distributor Doctor parts.
The plugs are intact, gaps look OK, but they are all black and wet (petrol).
The carb dashpot is topped up.
Fitting my spare coil didn't help.
What have I missed?

I don’t think you’ve missed much. Incredibly comprehensive! Is the choke working is all I can offer. Have spiders blocked the air filter tube? Stale fuel? Clutching at straws….

If you have some Easy Start (or carb cleaner), take the air filter off, squirt some in and try to start it.

Possibly there’s too much fuel sloshing about after repeated efforts to start it. If so, take out spark plugs, disconnect power to coil and fuel pump and spin engine over to expel excess fuel. Reconnect everything and try again.

Stephen

[geoberni]

I knew I'd seen a similar picture before!
My own 71 Traveller doesn't want to start after the winter, and - at the risk of hi-jacking this thread - I'd love some thoughts.
Nothing had been done to it since it last ran in November.
The engine turns OK.
The battery is a good one (now!)
Petrol gushes out the hose going to the float chamber (when disconnected!).
12 volts are reaching the coil.
The coil measures 3ohm primary, 9kohm secondary. The primary takes 3.5A with the points closed.
The contact side of the coil gets alternately grounded and gets pulled to 12V as the starting handle is turned (compression felt).
The dist cap is clean, and the centre brush is intact and measures OK to the coil.
I get a spark on the #1 HT lead.
I've just replaced the rotor arm and capacitor with Distributor Doctor parts.
The plugs are intact, gaps look OK, but they are all black and wet (petrol).
The carb dashpot is topped up.
Fitting my spare coil didn't help.
What have I missed?

That's pretty comprehensive.
The Plugs being 'black & wet' even with petrol does make me wonder.
It is possible that the fuel has degraded a little and is not igniting before 'flooding'; perhaps the timing isn't quite perfect, the colder weather can bring small discrepancies to the fore...
I'd be tempted to get some fresh fuel in a can and just use it to fill the carb reservoir, or try some Easy Start Spray.

I'll admit I'm not a great Ethanol Worrier.
I last filled my Minor in August and I've been able to start it every month since then (fingers crossed, so far)... I've currently got the seats and carpet out to change the handbrake lever, so not been started for a couple of weeks.

[mike1864]

Cheers for those suggestions. I’ll try them out tomorrow. I’d not changed the points. But the gap was correct and the DVM said they were doing their job.

[svenedin]

Cheers for those suggestions. I’ll try them out tomorrow. I’d not changed the points. But the gap was correct and the DVM said they were doing their job.

Keep us informed please!

Stephen

[Mervin]

Thanks again for all the replies.
I have checked just about everything. Not been out in the car but the engine starts and runs perfectly.
Battery cables and terminal connections are tight and clean. C.B. points were a bit dirty. I don't want to just go replacing stuff yet including the that distributor l.t. lead.
I did remove the distributor and have checked/reset the dynamic ign. timing on refitting. The dwell angle is a bit high at 66 deg., that needs addressing.
I might do, as suggested, remove the 10mm push fit (Lucar type)connectors from the ammeter and temporarily connect them together, wrapped well with insulating tape too!
I don't know if having one of those aftermarket (non Lucas) voltage regulators would have any affect? i.e. a momentary loss of continuity between terminals A and A1. I've even clean the points in that.
I don't know, because it was only a couple of seconds event, whether there was a total loss of 12v or it was ignition only.

[mike1864]

Keep us informed please!

Stephen

I was tied up yesterday taking the modern car for its service and MOT.
But I checked when I 'd last filled up the Traveller. It was August 2023! The gauge is near the bottom; so some 20L seems to have "gone to the angels" (a distillers' term). It does a have locking petrol cap. And no puddle or staining underneath the tank!
So it's a good guess that what's left is seriously out of spec; so stale as to be completely non-flammable!
So I'll take the plugs out, and turn the engine to blow the cylinders out. Then leave it a day to be sure. I'll drain and clean the float chamber and pump filter. Then fit new plugs. My MOT mechanic suggested emptying the last 5L out of the tank using the car's own SU pump into a Jerry can.
Then I'll prime the float chamber with fresh fuel (E5) and disconnect the pump (volts and hose).
If that works, I'll put the rest of the fresh fuel in the tank, along with the usual Ethomix.

[svenedin]

Keep us informed please!

Stephen

I was tied up yesterday taking the modern car for its service and MOT.
But I checked when I 'd last filled up the Traveller. It was August 2023! The gauge is near the bottom; so some 20L seems to have "gone to the angels" (a distillers' term). It does a have locking petrol cap. And no puddle or staining underneath the tank!
So it's a good guess that what's left is seriously out of spec; so stale as to be completely non-flammable!
So I'll take the plugs out, and turn the engine to blow the cylinders out. Then leave it a day to be sure. I'll drain and clean the float chamber and pump filter. Then fit new plugs. My MOT mechanic suggested emptying the last 5L out of the tank using the car's own SU pump into a Jerry can.
Then I'll prime the float chamber with fresh fuel (E5) and disconnect the pump (volts and hose).
If that works, I'll put the rest of the fresh fuel in the tank, along with the usual Ethomix.

That's the answer!! If you have an original tank, there is a drain plug at the bottom. If it's a replacement tank it may not have a drain plug and yes you can use the fuel pump to get it nearly empty but the disadvantage is you risk dragging a lot of nasty muck through the fuel line which if you're really unlucky will get blocked (this happened to me). I bet it starts straight away with fresh fuel. Your time has not been wasted though. You've done a really thorough check up of the fuel and ignition system.

Stephen