Morris 8e 1947

[Stu]

Hi I know it's not a morris minor but I need some advice also I know very little about cars but saying that I'm not a complete idiot there a few bits missing .
My problem is I have brought a morris 8e 1947
It has two batteries 12v starting and 6v running
The batteries run low its still a dynamo can I fit sn alternator without doing anything else or is there a better way HELP!

[oliver90owner]

I’m guessing, here, that two batteries was not original? Just the 6 volt battery is original? Positive earth system I expect?

If this is the case, fitting a 12V alternator is the best modern improvement, but light bulbs, etc might/would need changing as well as anything else that is voltage or polarity conscious.

Vehicles/machines were often changed to 12V systems to aid the starting (most 6V starter motors will operate (for short periods, not continuously) quite happily. 6V batteries and 6V starters together were often, shall we say, sluggish in operation.

An oft change was to fit an 8 volt battery, to improve starting with a 6V starter, on tractors (likely mostly those without lighting systems).

[simmitc]

Is the dynamo an original 6v unit or has it already been replaced by a 12v? If original, then it will never charge the 12v battery. How are the batteries connected? They cannot just be in parallel as they are different voltages. An original dynamo might be connected to the "running" battery; a new 12v dynamo might be charging the starter battery and have a step-down split-charge device for the running battery.

As above, making everything 12v would be the simplest (and arguably the best) solution, but would lose originality - mind you, it's not original now.

[sirrom918]

Stu,

Suggest you consider joining the 'Morris Register' the 'World's biggest club for Morris vehicles designed before 1940' - your Morris 8 Series E was designed in the late 1930's and first introduced in late 1938. The Morris Register has been in existence since 1960. You've just missed the club's annual rally, Morris Fest 2024 at Thoresby Park near Newark August 2nd - 4th.

https://morrisregister.co.uk

6 volt is perfectly adequate so long as the 6v dynamo and 6v battery are in good condition - particularly the 6v battery. Perhaps the dynamo and the starter motor need new carbon brushes fitting. Check that you have the correct battery / starter cable for 6v systems - these require heavier duty cables than 12v systems. The 6v battery / starter cables should be 315/0.40, 40mm², 13mm OD, 300A . AES - Auto Electric Supplies stock this cable Ref. No. 020203.

https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/ ... rter-cable

You mention missing parts - David Molyneux in Cumbria supplies used parts for Morris 8's - email: dmmmem(at)tiscali(dot)co(dot)uk

[geoberni]

Hi I know it's not a morris minor but I need some advice also I know very little about cars but saying that I'm not a complete idiot there a few bits missing .
My problem is I have brought a morris 8e 1947
It has two batteries 12v starting and 6v running
The batteries run low its still a dynamo can I fit sn alternator without doing anything else or is there a better way HELP!

This really worries me, because unless you have the basic electrical knowledge, no amount of posted comments on here is really going to help you.
Replies are only going to be as good, at best, as the information you provide.
The concept of a 12v Starting and a 6v running battery is completely outlandish and thought up by a complete cowboy IMHO.
If a past owner has bodged the system, to have a 12v starter and 6v Running, they should have built it around 2 x 6v batteries in Series, giving 12v for the Starter and divided the limited number of 'services' between the 2 batteries.
What Dynamo is fitted, how it it all connected.??
The Morris 8 was/is a 6v car; you can get 6v Alternators, but you need pretty deep pockets.

Do you have any idea how this set-up is connected??

[sirrom918]

Stu,

If the original M8 Series E 6v dynamo is fitted to the car then it should be a Lucas C45YV Service No. 228269 with a RF95 Control Box

If the original M8 Series E 6v starter motor is fitted to the car then it should be a Lucas M35G Service No. 250405

These letters / numbers are stamped into the cylindrical steel casing of the dynamo and starter motor.

The M8 Series E was positive earth whereas the earlier (i.e. late 1934 to late 1938) Pre-Series, Series 1 and Series 2 Morris Eights were negative earth.

[Stu]

Hi sorry
Late reply iam pretty useless to be honest it's a 1947 side value 918 or 981 not sure this will be important so I don't become a pain or try people's patience I have since 2022 had 4 strokes o have cerebrovascular disease cerebral small vessel disease genetic so iam struggling a bit 50% chance dementia anyway enough about that iam hoping to convert it back to 6 volts my second question can I put a morris minor starter motor on it ? Or do I have to stick to those codes 3 question can I use a morris minor starter handle? It's took me some time to work out this forum page blog as my brain now is like a 90 year olds thank you so kindly for the reply ill try and up load some pictures of the engine
Thanks
Stu

[Stu]

Hi again
All 6 volt dynamo, starter motor, coil
From the picture the 6 volt now is a proper battery, could I simply remove the 12 volt and replace with another 6 volt and changed the cables on both for heavy duty and I guess recon starter, dynamo, coil ,
Thanks
Stu

[geoberni]

That's a very small 6v battery. If you search for 6v Car Battery, you'll find that the battery you have is for a Toy Car.
A proper 6v Car Battery looks like 1/2 a 12v car battery....

6v battery.JPG (112.08 KiB) Viewed 5535 times

I think you need to do some detective work out and establish what is connected to what, because even that Fuel Pump looks to be 12v; SU 6v pumps have a brown top (unless it's a refurbished one and the wrong top has been fitted.. .).

A right Joker has been at work on those electrics.....

[oliver90owner]

Geobernie states “that is a very small 6V battery”.

Dead right on that. Both 6V and 12V appear to be 45Ah? That means the 6V battery has exactly half the energy storage capacity of the 12V battery.

As I indicated earlier, likely best to fit a modern alternator and check/change all electrics (except the starter motor) to 12V negative earth polarity. Then don’t operate the starter motor for extended periods, or it would overheat.

[simmitc]

It is an "interesting" collection of wiring. As above, you need to draw out what goes where so that you can make your own custom wiring diagram. If the starter motor has the mounting bolts in the same place as a Minor, AND the Bendix drive has the same teeth and throw, then you could fit the Minor starter, BUT the Minor starter is 12v and so will not be happy on 6v, you would need the 12v battery, and to charge that, you would need a 12v dynamo or alternator. However one looks at it, having both 6v and 12v in the same vehicle is far from ideal; settle on one or the other and fit the correct components to match.

Each individual circuit is easy to understand, it's only when you get them all together that it starts to look complicated. Consider: Starter system needs a battery, a starter motor and some cables and a switch. That's it, The charging system could be as simple as an alternator with built-in rectifier/regulator/control so it just has a couple of wires to connect and a warning lamp and ignition switch. Fuel pump, battery and one wire and a switch, Indicators need the battery, four lamps, some wire and a switch. Fuses added as needed. The point is, it's step by step, and each step is relatively simple, but you do need to plan for what you want; hence back to 6v or 12v? I would go 12v negative earth if only because all components are readily available and relatively cheap.

[geoberni]

Geobernie states “that is a very small 6V battery”.

Dead right on that. Both 6V and 12V appear to be 45Ah? That means the 6V battery has exactly half the energy storage capacity of the 12V battery.

As I indicated earlier, likely best to fit a modern alternator and check/change all electrics (except the starter motor) to 12V negative earth polarity. Then don’t operate the starter motor for extended periods, or it would overheat.

I've just realised the images are photos of a screen/monitor.

The Car is clearly 12v Starter Motor, because the 12v battery is connected to the Pull Starter...

I don't know how you've got the idea the 6v is 45Ah; I can't make any markings on it and the size of the wiring makes that unlikely. I don't think that style battery come any larger capacity than about 12-15Ah.

For those that don't know the Morris 8 that well, this is what a presentable engine bay looks like.
Note the Brown Cap on the Fuel Pump to indicate 6v.

1948-morris-eight-8-se-031.jpg (197.98 KiB) Viewed 5487 times

.
Stu's Coil seems NOT to match the 6v one .... I'm lost for words, well ones I can use on here at least, to describe how I fell about the person who created this Frankenstein of a Morris 8. An absolute ..... nincompoop !
Never underestimate the ingenuity of the complete fool.....

Edited: Because I mistyped, and missed 'NOT' from the comment about the fuel pump. A 6 volt pump has a Brown cap, unless it's a bodged overhaul.

[Stu]

Hi all
Yes there's now a proper battery on it but that's seen better days thank you all for the mass of input also I'll add never underestimate there's a fool who would by this car thanks all again
Kind regards
Sty

[Stu]

I was thinking could I just chuck two 6v on and replace battery cables to large and obviously recon starter motor and check that fuel pump

[geoberni]

I was thinking could I just chuck two 6v on and replace battery cables to large and obviously recon starter motor and check that fuel pump

Well that's a possibility, although not practical. Just because something can be done doesn't make it a good idea; as you've discovered.
As an electrical engineer, I would really want to know what powers what, and two 6v batteries is the most expensive option, as they can individually cost more than a 12v one.

[Stu]

Hi again
Ahh right my knowledge with electricity I can change a light bulb 🫣 I brought some old work shop manuals off ebay so basically I need to chase back the old wiring and see what's what and replace if need . I feel I will convert back to 6v as it was clocks don't work but oil pressure clock dose . Indicators don't work there the old flick out one the name escapes me would a morris crank handle fit ? Heres some more photos of engine and car thanks again for looking after me
Kind regards
Stu

[Stu]

Hi again
Ahh right my knowledge with electricity I can change a light bulb 🫣 I brought some old work shop manuals off ebay so basically I need to chase back the old wiring and see what's what and replace if need . I feel I will convert back to 6v as it was clocks don't work but oil pressure clock dose . Indicators don't work there the old flick out one the name escapes me would a morris crank handle fit ? Heres some more photos of engine and car thanks again for looking after me
Kind regards
Stu

[Stu]

Can't these photos up

[geoberni]

Well my knowledge of 6v cars is exhausted.
If I were you, I'd survey the car completely, finding out what parts are original 6v and what are 12v.

Then look at what it would cost to replace remaining 6v parts with 12v equivalents, and vice versa, getting 6v parts to replace the ones that are currently 12v.
Certainly a 12v starter and fuel pump, I'm not sure about the Dynamo, that might be a 6v one

It may be that the Past owner has gone down the mix n'match 12v route because of the expense of the 6v items or just that there are none to be had.

Then decide which is the best option for you.

It might be, looking at the state of that wiring, that the car needs a complete rewire. There's few Morris Minors running around on 70 yr old wiring, and I suspect there's fewer Morris Eights.

I suggest you get in contact with the Morris Register as see what advice they have. https://morrisregister.co.uk/

[sirrom918]

Stu,

I've owned a 1936 Morris 8 Series 1 Tourer and been a member of the Morris Register for a considerable number years. The engine in your M8 Series E is essentially no different to the engine in my Series 1. Looking at your photos the dynamo and starter look to be correct for a Series E - I suggest you get a small wire brush (spark plug cleaning type) or course wire wool and burnish the outer casing surface of both the dynamo and starter and you'll find both the Lucas part numbers which I mentioned in my earlier post and the voltage 6V or 12V stamped into the casing - in fact your second from last photo, a close up of the dynamo shows 6V before the direction of rotation arrow and above the 6V I can see the C45YV mentioned in my earlier post. I suspect the starter motor will also be 6V but being fed 12V - it doesn't necessarily do it any harm so long as you don't run the 6V starter for long periods of time on 12V. I also suspect the SU fuel pump may be 6V but a previous owner has perhaps fitted a more readily available 12V black bakelite cover - they're identical in size - on the other hand it could indeed be a 12V pump given what the previous owner has done. Sometimes the voltage is stamped around the circumference of the alloy body see my red arrow - again give the circumference a good clean and see if the voltage is marked.

Personally I'd return the car to its original 6V positive earth specification as you've already got the correct dynamo and more than likely the correct starter motor - parts for both are easily available. I don't believe in fitting modern alternators to pre-war cars. New Morris 8 wiring looms are available from 'Auto Sparks' but they're not cheap.

Trafficators is the word you were looking for - you can now get flashing festoon LED bulbs to fit within the orange trafficator arms which I fully agree with.

The engine is 918cc though the log book may say different - this was a problem created by the then DVLC (now DVLA) when they transferred the old both buff and green card log books onto the then new computer database at Swansea back in the 1970's and 80's - the old log books didn't give the cars engine size in cc merely as 8hp so the DVLC's computer programmers unsure of what 8hp meant in terms of CC's often gave the cars an arbitrary 885cc or similar.

By the way, the oil pressure gauge isn't electric unless the previous owner his messed about with that too! - there should be a very small bore copper oil pipe with brass fittings leading from the rear nearside of the engine block through the bulkhead to the gauge - engine side there should have a number of spiral turns in the copper pipe to avoid the pipe fracturing when the engine moves about on its rubber suspension mounts.

Re the starting handle, as I mentioned in my earlier post David Molyneux who's based in Cumbria is a supplier of used parts for Morris 8's - he may well have some Series E starting handles in stock and will post one out to you if you don't live near Cumbria. I gave you David's email address in my earlier post - his telephone number is 07715 059280. David usually has some dynamo's and starters in stock should you need one, though yours could be reconditioned if necessary - there's a number of companies around that can do this.

I would strongly recommend joining the Morris Register - they too have a members forum similar to this. However you don't need to be a member to buy parts from the Morris Register Spare Service, though if you are a member you get a 15% discount off the list prices. Link below to the M.R. spares store.

https://morrisregisterspares.co.uk/home-page/