Starter motor problem

[Andyhereford]

Some advice please.
Got home yesterday afternoon. Car has been starting and running really quite well. I stopped on drive and when I went to run the car into the garage and starter motor would not spin the engine.
The battery is fine…voltmeter and lights check.
The starter motor shaft spins but bendix apparently is not spinning out to engage fly wheel.
I am about to take the starter motor out to see what the problem is…hopefully dirt / muck…that I can clean off. I am presuming that as the shaft is spinning the brushes / motor itself is alright.
The book says that before taking off the starter motor to take the distributer off.
Is this necessary?
I have taken off the distributor cap and the various leads and I can’t see how access to the two bolts holding the starter motor in place will be greatly improved by removal of the distributor body, unless the distributor has to come out to allow space to lift out the starter motor!
I am a bit paranoid about disturbing the timing!
Also presumably the starter motor…if and when I get the bolts undone…slides out towards the front of the car. Will the oil filter…old type…foul it. If so presumably I will need to remove this also.

[paul 300358]

Before removing anything check the battery. Put the headlights on and turn the key, are the headlight going dim?

[Andyhereford]

Paul
Checked the battery. Voltmeter and lights. All seems to be OK.
My first thought was the solenoid. Cleaned the terminals.
Then realised that I could hear a “ spinning sound “ when the ignition was turned.
Cab
I can clearly see the front of the starter motor shaft spinning on the ignition.
As said in my query the starter motor spins on the battery but the bendix gear is not engaging the flywheel.
I imagine the next step is to have a look at why this is not happening.
Any suggestions gratefully received.

[myoldjalopy]

You don't need to remove the dizzy or the oil filter. A bit of wiggling may be required.....in any case, you will not disturb the timing by removing the dizzy as long as the clamp bolt is not touched and the engine is not turned at all before replacement.

[geoberni]

Without actually hearing it, it's hard to say for certain, but assuming you have got good clean connections, it's likely that the Starter Bendix isn't flying out enough to connect to the flywheel.
There's no need to touch the Distributor (assuming that you have a standard engine & gearbox, and haven't neglected to mention any other relevant changes, like a servo in the way...) it's just a couple of spanners to crack the nut loose on each bolt and they should come off easily.
Some people drop it out the bottom, I find it just as easy to remove from the top (and I do have a servo on that side, making it a bit more difficult), I actually took mine off yesterday ahead of removing the engine.
It's literally a 10 minute job to remove, you can then use a couple of jump leads if you have them, to power it up while you're holding it, or held on the floor/bench if you're of a nervous disposition.

Edited because I hate realising I've made a typo....

[olonas]

I'm not suggesting it is definitely the battery, but I recently renewed the Bendix assembly on a starter. Tried a bench test using a random battery (multimeter indicated 12.5v) and in spite of the motor turning, that battery wasn't producing enough ooomph to cause the gear to move along the motor shaft.
A different, healthy battery was required.
Are you able to test the batteries health etc., not just it's voltage?
As others have written, it's possible to extract the motor with the distributor in situ. Removing the cap does provide a bit more room though.
I use graphite powder to "lubricate" the Bendix after decontaminating with brake cleaner.

[Andyhereford]

Olonas
Thanks for the reply. I will probably take out the starter motor anyway and give it a good clean. It will be a good learning for me if nothing else. However before I do that, when I see my daughter tomorrow I will try the battery from her Minor in my car to see how that goes. My battery does not owe me anything and it might be on the blink. I tested it with a voltmeter and the “ light test” and it all seems OK. Anyway thanks for your suggestion.

[svenedin]

You don't need to remove the dizzy or the oil filter. A bit of wiggling may be required.....in any case, you will not disturb the timing by removing the dizzy as long as the clamp bolt is not touched and the engine is not turned at all before replacement.

I am afraid you do disturb the timing because the distributor clamping plate has elongated holes for the set screws. It's not much, but it will alter the timing by a few degrees.

IMG_9110.jpeg (1.76 MiB) Viewed 3537 times

[myoldjalopy]

No, because the position of the dizzy will be determined by the engagement of the distributor drive in its slot. In any case, every manual will tell you exactly the same as I said in my above post about not losing the timing when removing the dizzy.

[kevin s]

If the cable nut on the end of the starter starts to turn the threaded stud as well as ours did last time stop and remove the cable at the solenoid, the starter comes out easily enough without touching the distributor.

[Andyhereford]

Thanks for everyone’s help and advice.
Not knowing very much about engines and having come to the joy of Morris Minors very late in life I have not yet learnt the lesson, so often repeated on this forum, of starting at the simplest end of the problem and working along stage by stage.
I immediately thought that as the starter motor was not spinning ( it had been fine up until then) that the problem would be either in the solenoid, the terminals, or the starter motor itself.
I cleaned the terminals and was just starting to take the starter motor out when I read the post about the battery, while it might be reading 12+ volts on the voltmeter it was possibly not producing sufficient current to spin the stater motor fast enough to operate the bendix. ( the battery is old and does need replacing!).
Anyway I put the battery on charge over night and first turn of the key away the starter motor went. So I will get a new battery!
Thanks once again for every ones help and advice. This must be just about the best owners club / motor enthusiast forum around!

[svenedin]

No, because the position of the dizzy will be determined by the engagement of the distributor drive in its slot. In any case, every manual will tell you exactly the same as I said in my above post about not losing the timing when removing the dizzy.

I know what the manuals say, that if you do not disturb the pinch bolt and take the distributor off with its bracket attached it will not disturb the timing when you refit it. However, the bracket has elongated holes where the bolts attach it to the block. Having just done this a few days ago (when I was fitting a new O-ring oil seal) I found that the distributor can be rotated a few degrees either way which would disturb the timing but only by a small amount. If I was doing this I would check the timing afterwards but perhaps I am being too pedantic and it really does not matter.

Stephen

[olonas]

"Anyway I put the battery on charge over night and first turn of the key away the starter motor went. So I will get a new battery!"
Hopefully that's the problem. Fingers crossed.
As you write, the existing battery is getting on in years so probably reaching end of life anyway.
I usually mark the position of the distributor relative to the clamp plate, with a fine paint marker, release the clamping bolt and then extract it from the plate. 1/2" A/F stubby spanner.

[geoberni]

I cleaned the terminals and was just starting to take the starter motor out when I read the post about the battery, while it might be reading 12+ volts on the voltmeter it was possibly not producing sufficient current to spin the stater motor fast enough to operate the bendix. ( the battery is old and does need replacing!).

I thought you had discounted this because you had also said

I tested it with a voltmeter and the “ light test” and it all seems OK.

A battery has to be tested 'on-load', just about any battery can give a satisfactory terminal voltage if it's not connected to anything; it doesn't matter if it's an AAA 1.5v or a Car Battery.
It's always the same with these sort of problems, someone says something and the person reading it naturally interprets it from their own knowledge and experience.
Clearly your version of

The battery is fine…voltmeter and lights check.

means more to me and perhaps others, than it does yourself.
There's been people get upset because they get quizzed repeatedly, trying to work out what they actually have done.
I'm glad you've found the problem.
You might care to check the post I made at the end of last year about Battery Selection, before deciding on the replacement.
viewtopic.php?t=75708

[oliver90owner]

A further polite warning re diagnosis before spending unnecessarily. Check the charging system is working correctly before writing off the battery. If there is a charging fault, a new battery may soon be compromised.

The battery is the most likely suspect…. but….