Morris Minor Owners Club

Hi,

I know people convert to front discs for better braking and less effort (with a servo) but I was wondering if anyone had converted for reliability/ lower maintenance.

I have standard 8" drums and I feel like I'm always having to replace cylinders or make adjustments. I frequently have seized or leaky cylinders or brakes pulling to one side and it only seems to take a few weeks of not being driven for the brakes to start playing up. I always have 'genuine' cylinders fitted but it doesn't seem to make much difference. As well as being irritating, it's always very expensive.

So, I'm now wondering if I should fit discs and if they'll give me less hassle. My experience with 'modern' cars is that the brakes need virtually no attention but I don't know if this would apply to the available Minor disc conversions.

Thanks,
James

All brakes require maintenance.

Yes, of course. The question is whether discs require substantially less maintenance than drums. There's also the question of if drums inherently require more or if it's to do with the quality of wheel cylinders available today.

In the past three years, my Wife's Honda Jazz, which does many more miles than my Traveller, has required no brake repairs, or adjustments and they have been inspected regularly. My Traveller, on the other hand, has needed wheel cylinders replacing several times, as well as regular adjustment of the shoes, in the same time period. I'm fine with the adjustments but the cost of replacing failed cylinders adds up.

I switched to discs many years ago on the front. Since then, I have changed pads a couple of times - far quicker and easier than shoes; but I have not had to do anything the the calipers. Changing to silicone fluid also improves reliability as there is no moisture to corrode cylinders.

over the years I've owned 30 or so classic cars of one type or another, most have had disc brakes (MGBs and Midgets, Triumph Stags, TR6 and spitfire) a couple have had drums (minor, 1100, Minis)

the only one that has given me any grief has been the Traveller that I currently own. All the brakes were rebuilt in the last two years. I've had to replace two slave cylinder and both sets of shoes since and I'm constantly adjusting the blooming' things - well it fells like it anyway.

This is exactly my experience, grumpy21, the cylinders don't seem to last for any decent amount of time.

Simmitc, this sounds good regarding maintenance. Is the braking noticeably improved? I find that the wheels lock fairly easily with the drums but my wife won't drive the car because of the effort required on the pedal.

For me it was series Landrovers that put me off drums forever, leaking, difficult to bleed, pulling to one side and hopeless in wading discs are easily inspected and only need pads every 20k miles or so. As a contrast after 5 years I have not needed to do anything on my Rangerover.

Discs generally require more effort than drums though so unless you fit a servo they will still require a firm push, you also need to consider balance, if the rears lock up before the front it will be unstable.

We have discs on our minor, the've not needed anything in the 4 years it's been on the road.

James, properly maintained drums can lock all wheels, and the maximum braking effect is just before lock-up occurs. so discs cannot improve on that; but can do it more consistently with less chance of fade. As Kevin says, a servo will reduce the effort required to press the pedal, whether using drums or discs. I drive Travellers with discs and servos and a saloon with standard drums for originality. I'm happy with all, but feel that the discs are better overall. I use the Marina based conversion. Balance between front and rear is fine.

What is the reason for all these cylinder replacements, leaks or frozen, original or new? No matter what vehicle frozen cylinders will happen. It's caused by accumulation on rust and dirt and without a decent external seal it happens more often on our cylinders. There is no need to replace the cylinder. Pull just the piston, clean off the grime, and coat it with grease. No need to bleed. They will stay active much longer. Switch to silicone as mentioned will virtually eliminate frozen cylinders. It's probably a combination of the silicone migrating past the seals and coating the walls and the lack of desire of moisture trying to get into the brake fluid. I went twenty years on rebuilt cylinders with silicone with not a leak or frozen cylinder. Two Minors are bone stock and one has Spridget brakes.

Although I have evidence to support this I do have a theory.

We classic car folk are a fairly tight fisted mob in general and try to spend as little as possible whilst keeping our cars as ‘nice’ as possible (whatever that means to you). This has forced prices down as cheap as possible and resulted in manufacturing being shifted to the place where labour costs are the lowest. This results in poorer standards, corner cutting, inferior materials and minimal quality control. Rough casting, porous materials, imperfect finish and sloppy fit are indicators of this

Only my theory but if you pay peanuts then you get monkeys!

Hi,

Thanks for all your replies. I've had a both seized and leaky cylinders on numerous occasions and, in fact, the brakes started playing up again today, pulling to one side.

I'm pretty much decided now to convert to discs once I have the money to spare, given your feedback.

From a braking power perspective, I'm definitely in the "drums are perfectly adequate on a standard Minor" camp. Since they're capable of locking up the wheels, I don't see how the braking ability can be improved. The braking is ultimately limited by the tyres, not the brakes, as far as I understand. I do understand that discs are superior in terms of brake fade, though.

I am wondering, though, if there are other advantages of discs brakes that I'm missing. When people are talking about increasing engine power, either by modifications or by fitting a 1275, I often read recommendations to upgrade the brakes. I understand the basic logic that with more engine power, you should have more stopping power. But, if the standard brakes can lock up the wheels and therefore braking cannot be improved, what is the reason for recommending uprating the brakes when increasing the engine power?

Thanks,
James

Well, those with a scientific training background (of which I am not one) will doubtless be along shortly to explain in detail but, for what it may be worth, my own understanding runs as follows: more engine power begets higher speeds which beget increased (significantly, I imagine) kinetic energy which transfers to much more heat being generated by braking friction, leading to overheating and brake fade. Discs are far better at heat dissipation than drums in that regard.

Ah, that's a good point, myrtles man. I had only been thinking about brake fade as occurring during long descents but that makes sense that it would also occur during normal braking and to a greater extent from a higher speed.

Increase power gives you increased acceleration. On the road your final speed should be very similar, so unless you will start driving like a jack rabbit and close in too quickly on the vehicle in front of you or start traveling too close, the braking need can be similar to stock Minor.

Returning to the original question, consider regular maintenance - replacing shoes vs replacing pads.

Option 1. Rotate drum, align adjuster 1 and slacken off. Repeat for second adjuster. Remove drum retaining screws. Remove drum. Disconnect return springs and remove shoes, taking care to not allow the downward facing cylinder to drop its piston. Assemble new shoes and fiddle about to fit with springs, still retaining the downward facing piston. Insert the adjusters. Refit the drum. Refit retaining screws. Rotate drum, align hole with adjuster 1 and adjust. Repeat for adjuster 2.

Option 2. Remove retaining clips, remove pins, remove pads. Fit pads. Fir pins. Fit slips.

There are tasks common to both such as raising and securing the vehicle, removing and refitting wheel, cleaning, possible lubrication, etc; but the position is clear.

That's not even considering having to adjust the drums regularly whilst discs self-adjust.

The only downside for discs is that the front wheels require more cleaning due to the brake dust.

JOWETTJAVELIN wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:23 pm All brakes require maintenance.

eh? how do you come to that conclusion?

I've got discs fitted to my 2 MM and my A35. In the 10 years i've owned morris/austins with discs brakes all i've ever changed is brake pads/discs and a brake fluid changes. no other maintenance is required.

I started with standard brakes on cars and soon realised that drum brakes weren't up to the required standard to drive on the roads with the conditions and fools that drive in this day and age. forget 'originality' and all that, if someone cuts you up, your going to have some effort to stop against a car with modern brakes.

Fitting discs brakes to classics has been going on for as long as time. It's the safest and most improved upgrade to give any classic car.

James k wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 1:30 pm Hi,

I know people convert to front discs for better braking and less effort (with a servo) but I was wondering if anyone had converted for reliability/ lower maintenance.

I have standard 8" drums and I feel like I'm always having to replace cylinders or make adjustments. I frequently have seized or leaky cylinders or brakes pulling to one side and it only seems to take a few weeks of not being driven for the brakes to start playing up. I always have 'genuine' cylinders fitted but it doesn't seem to make much difference. As well as being irritating, it's always very expensive.

So, I'm now wondering if I should fit discs and if they'll give me less hassle. My experience with 'modern' cars is that the brakes need virtually no attention but I don't know if this would apply to the available Minor disc conversions.

Thanks,
James

go for it. initial outlay to get all the bits and about a day in your life to fit them. I would suggest fitting a remote res if fitting discs as you will need a larger fluid res. I'd also fit braided stainless brake hoses also. the transformation is very noticable. I personally don't think the cars need a servo as they aren't heavy enough, but thats a personal choice.

There's a reason cars aren't built with drums at the front anymore. As for the standard brakes being able to lock all 4 wheels, I've never experienced that and if they do then perhaps only once after which they fade dangerously.

More importantly, unless you live in the middle of nowhere and don't encounter traffic, being able to stop at a similar rate to the car in front is quite important too. Discs all the way.