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Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:33 pm
by Steffen
Hi there,
already searched the message board without success.
I would like to tow an vintage and lightweight caravan behind my Morris Traveller, 1098 engine, front disc brakes and anti roll bar fitted.
Do you have any recommendation for the mirros? I have on both sides the period correct mirrors fitted, but now I need to have an extended version for rear view. Any idea? I do not believe, that the push on mirrors (mostly quite cheap to get) will fit
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:53 pm
by ManyMinors
Desmo made a specific "caravan mirror" in the 1960s which has an extension arm. If you google "Desmo mirrors" there should still be some available? A pair of those should be ideal.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:13 pm
by Mick Lynch
ManyMinors is quite right. Desmo boomerang.
Incidentally found this pearl of wisdom from a 1952 book of caravaning
- 2D7AFE95-4FDD-4D41-AD78-AE7A63482932.jpeg (1.4 MiB) Viewed 5275 times
Obviously building a caravan was a thing back then
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:18 am
by irmscher
Make sure your licence covers you to tow a caravan or trailer
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:06 pm
by Bowie69
irmscher wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:18 am
Make sure your licence covers you to tow a caravan or trailer
All full licences allow you to tow a trailer, as per:
https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules#:~:text ... 03%2C500kg.
The text, in case web link disappears:
A full car licence already lets you tow trailers weighing no more than 750kg. You can also tow heavier trailers with a car as long as the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg.
There was a lot of confusion around a few years back, but the law was updated and the text clarified. Drivers that passed beofre 1997 can tow up to 3500Kg without the additional test.
The law as it stands could see you in a 2 ton car pulling a 1.5 ton trailer, without having to do an additional test. Note these are *WEIGHTS*, not kerb weight, but overall loaded weights.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:48 pm
by Chief
Also make sure that the vintage caravan is no more than the Minors towing limit of 610kg, preferably a lot less so you can put things in it.
Incidentally found this pearl of wisdom from a 1952 book of caravaning
"The Caravan Manual" I presume? (certainly looks like it)
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:27 pm
by geoberni
vintage and lightweight caravan
is somewhat of a contradiction.
In my experience, 'vintage' caravans, compatible to the age of a minor, were built on a steel chassis using heavy materials, such as thick toughened glass windows.
It'll be interesting to see what you find within the Minor's towing limits. There won't be many, mainly those little teardrop things I imagine.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:35 pm
by Chief
Actually vintage caravans tend to be lighter.
As an example, there was a review in a recent caravan magazine for a teardrop trailer. it was 2 berth, had a kitchen sink and a cupboard and that was really it as far as one could see bar maybe 12v lighting (I didn't read the review) however the unladen weight was something like 550kg from memory.
My caravan is from 1982 (the end year to be considered classic/vintage in the old cravan clubs), it's a four berth, with dining area, washroom, kitchen with grill, sink, cupboards, lights etc. etc. and weighs in unladen at 520kg.
Any my mothers 60/70s caravans are even lighter (but more basic) at the 310kg unladen mark.
Now days I bet a modern caravan offering the same stuff as mine would probably be at least 1200kg.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:07 pm
by Matt
Bowie69 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:06 pm
irmscher wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:18 am
Make sure your licence covers you to tow a caravan or trailer
All full licences allow you to tow a trailer, as per:
https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules#:~:text ... 03%2C500kg.
The text, in case web link disappears:
A full car licence already lets you tow trailers weighing no more than 750kg. You can also tow heavier trailers with a car as long as the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg.
There was a lot of confusion around a few years back, but the law was updated and the text clarified. Drivers that passed beofre 1997 can tow up to 3500Kg without the additional test.
The law as it stands could see you in a 2 ton car pulling a 1.5 ton trailer, without having to do an additional test. Note these are *WEIGHTS*, not kerb weight, but overall loaded weights.
Just to clarify a little, as the way you have written it could be open to misinterpretation. In terms of licences the actual weights, as being driven, are irrelevant - its all about what the vehicle is plated at. If you do not have B+E on your licence, you can tow a trailer plated at 750kg behind anything your cat B licence lets you drive (assuming the vehicle itself is capable). If you need to tow higher the Maximum Gross Weight of the towing vehicle (i.e. the maximum overall weight allowable, not actual weight) + the Maximum Authorised Mass of the trailer (again maximum overall weight of trailer + load allowable) must not exceed 3500kg. There used to be a clause that the MAM of the trailer had to be less than the unladen weight of the vehicle - but that was dropped in 2012 iirc.
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car
The other thing to bear in mind, is that an unbraked trailer (which I guess a vintage caravan is likely to be) cannot have a MAM over half the unladen weight of the towing vehicle (Construction and Use regs). As the unladen weight of a trav (based on a quick google) is 797kg - therefore any trailer with a MAM over 398kg would need to be braked to be legal.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:30 am
by irmscher
Most young people have to take a test to be able to tow anything
>the test is just like your driving test and includes motorway work and the relevant bits of the highway code.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:11 pm
by Bowie69
irmscher wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:30 am
Most young people have to take a test to be able to tow anything :
Incorrect, look at the link and discussion above.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:49 pm
by philipkearney
- image.jpeg (1.17 MiB) Viewed 5047 times
Not sure if this will work or not, you know what photo uploads are like....
A copy of an article re Morris's and caravanning from the Scottish branch magazine last year. Thanks to Andrew Haddow for the article.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:48 pm
by Bowie69
Matt wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:07 pm
Just to clarify a little, as the way you have written it could be open to misinterpretation. In terms of licences the actual weights, as being driven, are irrelevant - its all about what the vehicle is plated at. If you do not have B+E on your licence, you can tow a trailer plated at 750kg behind anything your cat B licence lets you drive (assuming the vehicle itself is capable). If you need to tow higher the Maximum Gross Weight of the towing vehicle (i.e. the maximum overall weight allowable, not actual weight) + the Maximum Authorised Mass of the trailer (again maximum overall weight of trailer + load allowable) must not exceed 3500kg. There used to be a clause that the MAM of the trailer had to be less than the unladen weight of the vehicle - but that was dropped in 2012 iirc.
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car
The other thing to bear in mind, is that an unbraked trailer (which I guess a vintage caravan is likely to be) cannot have a MAM over half the unladen weight of the towing vehicle (Construction and Use regs). As the unladen weight of a trav (based on a quick google) is 797kg - therefore any trailer with a MAM over 398kg would need to be braked to be legal.
I'm now more confused, as the two links we have referred to say different things:
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car says:
Licences issued from 1 January 1997
If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:
drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg
MAM is the limit on how much the vehicle can weigh when it’s loaded.
You have to pass the car and trailer driving test if you want to tow anything heavier.
https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules says:
A full car licence already lets you tow trailers weighing no more than 750kg. You can also tow heavier trailers with a car as long as the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg.
Looks like someone wants firing!
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:08 am
by Matt
I assure you it is MAM/GVW that matters - I can't remember which piece of legislation it is off hand but I have seen it.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:36 am
by Chief
In regards to the difference in towing weights between handbooks mentioned in the Scottish branches article.
I had a discussion once with someone who worked at Witter and they said that as far as the law is concerned it's the technical manual, not the handbook that is taken as the actual figure when no weight plate is on the car.
As I understand it, none of the technical manual specifications were ever updated between the versions (maybe someone with the very last one can check?). If that is the case then the legal limit for all the Minor variants is still the 609/610kg.
Since you're not allowed to legally tow more than the maxium towing figure given, the whole 750kg etc. becomes somewhat moot for the Minor.
Also, my Mothers caravan from the early 60s is braked, and I'd imagine most are including some from the 50s. Though to reverse you have to get out and flip a lever or some device to disengage the automatic brakes.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:44 pm
by Mick Lynch
Chief wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:48 pm
Also make sure that the vintage caravan is no more than the Minors towing limit of 610kg, preferably a lot less so you can put things in it.
Incidentally found this pearl of wisdom from a 1952 book of caravaning
"The Caravan Manual" I presume? (certainly looks like it)
Pittman’s The Book of the Trailer Caravan by A. E. North
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:29 am
by Clayton James
irmscher wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:18 am
Make sure your licence covers you to tow a caravan or trailer
I agree, this is really important.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:59 am
by Bowie69
Clayton James wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:29 am
irmscher wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:18 am
Make sure your licence covers you to tow a caravan or trailer
I agree, this is really important.
Everyone can, just there are weight restrictions.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:50 am
by irmscher
A trailer or caravan cant be towed and its not down to weight .The right to tow goes by when you passed your driving test and obtained your licence.
Re: Caravaning with a Traveller
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:23 pm
by Bowie69
irmscher wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:50 am
A trailer or caravan cant be towed and its not down to weight .The right to tow goes by when you passed your driving test and obtained your licence.
Incorrect, yes, even post-1997 licences.
You may tow with even the most basic 'car' licence, there are weight restrictions unless you pass the B+E test, at which point you can tow the 'normal' 3.5t limit if your vehicle allows it.
I will post the link and text here again, so people are not misinformed:
https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules#:~:text ... 03%2C500kg.
A full car licence already lets you tow trailers weighing no more than 750kg. You can also tow heavier trailers with a car as long as the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg.