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Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:33 pm
by Andymoor94
I've had a look around the forums for a definitive answer to this issue and can't find anything concrete, more so "You could try this".
The 4 door Series II really doesn't have much in terms of fitting points for seat belts, especially given that I want to keep my trafficators, however even with a dinky 803cc engine, I don't fancy taking the full force of the steering wheel at 30-40mph. My better half insists that she doesn't want to make any long journeys without some form of restraint too.
What options do I have here?
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:08 pm
by geoberni
Well the manual doesn't cover fitting belts to the SII at all, only to the 1000.
Hence why there is no 'definitive answer'.
As far as I can tell, there was never a Morris authorised design for fitting belts to an MM or SII.
To be brutally frank, a DIY fitting of belts could potentially be just as dangerous, perhaps even more so, than carrying on without them.
For example, being held against a seat that wasn't designed to have someone belted to it, who knows what might occur?
Is a SII windscreen big enough to be thrown through, not really.
I'd be interested to know how others have faired with your conundrum.
Personally, I've not considered fitting belts to Basil
Andymoor94 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:33 pm
My better half insists that she doesn't want to make any long journeys without some form of restraint too.
Yet some stats that were prevalent at the time of the Clunk Click campaign in the 70s, said there was far more chance of an accident on those little trips than on the longer journeys.....
Ask Shaw Taylor.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdA9CorwMiU
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:22 pm
by jagnut66
Hi Andy,
You can drill mounting holes that allow you to fit front seat belts in a series two and keep your working trafficators, I did it in my last series 2 and there are holes ready in Sally that won't interfere with them as well. You may just need to remove the trafficators, for access, while you fit them.
I have reinforced my floor mounting points and will do the B post ones as well.
I will take a picture for you.
I have purchased a pair of inertia reel seat belts with grey webbing and chrome fittings from Quick Fit. Not cheap but they will look right, I even sourced a pair of reproduction 'Britax' stickers for the buckles but that's just me..... 
https://www.quickfitsbs.com/auto_lap_di ... lassic.php
Tell them you want all chrome fittings (otherwise you will get some black stuff mixed in).
They will also need to know what sort of inertia reel mounting that you require, namely floor or sill / body, as it effects which type they send you.
That said, they sent me the wrong ones and then exchanged them without quibble. So I am happy with them.
If you decide you want these they may take a few weeks to arrive, as they have to make them up, plus the post can be slow at present anyway.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:43 pm
by Andymoor94
jagnut66 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:22 pm
Hi Andy,
You can drill mounting holes that allow you to fit front seat belts in a series two and keep your working trafficators, I did it in my last series 2 and there are holes ready in Sally that won't interfere with them as well. You may just need to remove the trafficators, for access, while you fit them.
I have reinforced my floor mounting points and will do the B post ones as well.
I will take a picture for you.
I have purchased a pair of inertia reel seat belts with grey webbing and chrome fittings from Quick Fit. Not cheap but they will look right, I even sourced a pair of reproduction 'Britax' stickers for the buckles but that's just me.....
https://www.quickfitsbs.com/auto_lap_di ... lassic.php
Tell them you want all chrome fittings (otherwise you will get some black stuff mixed in).
They will also need to know what sort of inertia reel mounting that you require, namely floor or sill / body, as it effects which type they send you.
That said, they sent me the wrong ones and then exchanged them without quibble. So I am happy with them.
If you decide you want these they may take a few weeks to arrive, as they have to make them up, plus the post can be slow at present anyway.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Andymoor94 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:33 pm
I've had a look around the forums for a definitive answer to this issue and can't find anything concrete, more so "You could try this".
The 4 door Series II really doesn't have much in terms of fitting points for seat belts, especially given that I want to keep my trafficators, however even with a dinky 803cc engine, I don't fancy taking the full force of the steering wheel at 30-40mph. My better half insists that she doesn't want to make any long journeys without some form of restraint too.
What options do I have here?
I really appreciate both responses. It's nice to have a method that's worked for someone, however I will have a think about the implications... I am having this fear of being restrained but having the b pillar yanked off and plowing into the back of my head. That'd do more damage than a steering wheel.
I don't know, a crash hard enough to require seat belts in any car would probably be enough force to simply cripple a minor and their passengers anyway, given the lack of crash protection... I may opt for some lap belts for a bit of psychological security for my better half. I don't know.
It's difficult to balance paranoia with sound safety. I have had accidents in the past, none of which were my fault (Being T Boned on a roundabout comes to mind). I don't cane this Minor at all and I always keep my distance, so can't see myself flying into a ditch or rear-ending someone at speed. This could be one of those things that plagues my mind until I eventually die of natural causes
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:11 pm
by philthehill
It is not you that you have to worry about. You can drive as careful as you like but it is the other idiot(s) on the road as you cannot predict their moves and actions.
As regards seat belts - as advised above there is no approved set up for your Minor all you can do is fit it the best you can with well strengthened anchor points. A lap and diagonal is the best set up after a full 4/6 point set up.
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:36 am
by kennatt
I fitted belts to my, now sold ser11 four door, but was convinced that in a serious head on, the top mount would simply rip out of the B post,theres not much metal in that area .In fact it would probably would just pull the top of the post off the roof.But I considered that anything was better than nothing at all,and would hold in a moderate shunt.Fitted as mentioned earlier. The two door is a different proposition,top mount fitted back on the frame so much more secure. good luck
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:33 am
by Andymoor94
philthehill wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:11 pm
It is not you that you have to worry about. You can drive as careful as you like but it is the other idiot(s) on the road as you cannot predict their moves and actions.
As regards seat belts - as advised above there is no approved set up for your Minor all you can do is fit it the best you can with well strengthened anchor points. A lap and diagonal is the best set up after a full 4/6 point set up.
I've been in 5 accidents, none of which were my fault, so I know that it's other people to worry about. I just want the safest method of restraining and protecting my passenger, hence my fear of the B pillar coming off and straight up fracturing skulls from behind! Maybe a bit dramatic, but there is an inherent risk. What setup do you have in yours?
kennatt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:36 am
I fitted belts to my, now sold ser11 four door, but was convinced that in a serious head on, the top mount would simply rip out of the B post,theres not much metal in that area .In fact it would probably would just pull the top of the post off the roof.But I considered that anything was better than nothing at all,and would hold in a moderate shunt.Fitted as mentioned earlier. The two door is a different proposition,top mount fitted back on the frame so much more secure. good luck
Anything is better than nothing, definitely. I'm swaying further towards, at the very least, a lap belt to keep us planted to the seat. Should I be worried about the fact the seats fold forwards?
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:51 am
by philthehill
The first seat belts fitted to my Minor and that was way back were a pair of Delany Gallay lap and twin shoulder straps coming together at one anchorage making it a 3 point anchorage configuration. The lap strap was anchored to the floor each side of the seat with large plates sandwiching the Minor floor. They were hard up against the transmission tunnel and outer edge of the rear footwell. The twin shoulder straps were anchored hard against the upriser to the boot again with large sandwich plated. The straps passed down between the rear seat squab and back rest. At the time they were the best seat belts you could obtain.
Later I used a 4 point system but are in the process of fitting a Willans six point harness.
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:53 am
by jagnut66
Should I be worried about the fact the seats fold forwards?
I don't think the folding seats will make much difference, I have driven with them before in my last one and I certainly won't be swapping mine out for modern ones......
Stop worrying Andy or you'll never drive her........
In a major crash many of us are unlikely to walk away, even in a modern, so just finish what you need to do to make her roadworthy and as safe as possible (including belts), then go out and enjoy! 
Best wishes,
Mike.
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:58 am
by liammonty
I think that a lap belt would be a waste of time - it's not going to stop your upper body from hitting anything that it would hit without a belt. I think that the best thing you can do is to fit a decent set of 3-point seat belts (or a 4 or 6 point set up as Phil suggests, but that isn't really practical for road use) - beyond that, it's a challenge to make the car a lot 'safer'. The metal steering wheel, solid steering column, metal dashboard, non-laminated windscreen, numerous hard surfaces in the car at head and chest (not to mention leg) level, lack of head restraints, and lack of any form of crumple zones are all going to work against anyone unfortunate enough to experience an accident in a Minor. I suspect the fact that the seat is not only folding, but also that the rear of it is not bolted to the floor, is also 'unhelpful'. As the late, great Spen King suggested, avoiding accidents in the first place is the best way to go, and we can all go some way to that by ensuring our cars are well maintained. Advanced Driving courses through the IAM, RoSPA etc. are also well worth giving consideration to in the interests of ensuring a driver is as safe as possible (and most likely to be able to anticipate problematic actions of other road users). This isn't meant to be patronising either - I speak as someone who completed my IAM advanced test 12 years ago and the Masters test 2 years ago, and would recommend both.
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:03 am
by Andymoor94
philthehill wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:51 am
The first seat belts fitted to my Minor and that was way back were a pair of Delany Gallay lap and twin shoulder straps (as shown in the link below) coming together at one anchorage making it a 3 point anchorage configuration. The lap strap was anchored to the floor each side of the seat with large plates sandwiching the Minor floor. They were hard up against the transmission tunnel and outer edge of the rear footwell. The twin shoulder straps were anchored hard against the upriser to the boot again with large sandwich plated. The straps passed down between the rear seat squab and back rest. At the time they were the best seat belts you could obtain.
Later I used a 4 point system but are in the process of fitting a Willans six point harness.
https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/ ... s-4041818a
That's a very cool setup. I wonder if I could do something similar, mounted to a low-mounted bar? You know how roll cages have the 3 point harnesses on them, I wonder if I could securely mount a similar system, about as high as the middle of the seat, and have the belts secured to that? Being new to this, I don't know what implications that design would have.
jagnut66 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:53 am
Should I be worried about the fact the seats fold forwards?
I don't think the folding seats will make much difference, I have driven with them before in my last one and I certainly won't be swapping mine out for modern ones......
Stop worrying Andy or you'll never drive her........
In a major crash many of us are unlikely to walk away, even in a modern, so just finish what you need to do to make her roadworthy and as safe as possible (including belts), then go out and enjoy!
Best wishes,
Mike.
As of this weekend, I finished the suspension and a few other niggly bits and are driving and enjoying Eugene now
He goes like stink for an 803cc and haven't had any driving issues or compromises in comparison to a modern car. His driver side brake light seems to have stopped, and I only have main beam and side headlights, but other than that, he's going great! These seat belts would just be the finishing touch to convince Jess to be a long journey passenger
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:08 am
by Andymoor94
liammonty wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:58 am
I think that a lap belt would be a waste of time - it's not going to stop your upper body from hitting anything that it would hit without a belt. I think that the best thing you can do is to fit a decent set of 3-point seat belts (or a 4 or 6 point set up as Phil suggests, but that isn't really practical for road use) - beyond that, it's a challenge to make the car a lot 'safer'. The metal steering wheel, solid steering column, metal dashboard, non-laminated windscreen, numerous hard surfaces in the car at head and chest (not to mention leg) level, lack of head restraints, and lack of any form of crumple zones are all going to work against anyone unfortunate enough to experience an accident in a Minor. I suspect the fact that the seat is not only folding, but also that the rear of it is not bolted to the floor, is also 'unhelpful'. As the late, great Spen King suggested, avoiding accidents in the first place is the best way to go, and we can all go some way to that by ensuring our cars are well maintained. Advanced Driving courses through the IAM, RoSPA etc. are also well worth giving consideration to in the interests of ensuring a driver is as safe as possible (and most likely to be able to anticipate problematic actions of other road users). This isn't meant to be patronising either - I speak as someone who completed my IAM advanced test 12 years ago and the Masters test 2 years ago, and would recommend both.
Hi Liam, given my history of accidents, I appreciate all the points made. I wasn't aware of those courses and I'm definitely going to get involved with something like that. I'm not here to tear up the streets and kickflip my car into an early grave, but anything I can do to ensure I'm not ruined by a third party would be helpful. However, with all that in mind, I am still hoping to pull out as many feasible stops to promote damage control in the event of something happening. Even if it's just a lap belt
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:17 am
by philthehill
The seat belt in the link below is very similar to the Delany Gallway originally fitted to my Minor
https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/tr ... -mh330-100
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:32 am
by Andymoor94
Will have a look when their site is back up and running
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:48 am
by MCYorks
Andymoor94 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:33 pm
The 4 door Series II really doesn't have much in terms of fitting points for seat belts, especially given that I want to keep my trafficators, however even with a dinky 803cc engine, I don't fancy taking the full force of the steering wheel at 30-40mph. My better half insists that she doesn't want to make any long journeys without some form of restraint too.
Some decent 3-point belts are a good idea as it reduces the chance of your head or body making contact with the steering wheel, dash, rear-view mirror or windscreen. The Series II steering wheel isn't dished like the Minor 1000, so the centre boss will be closer to the driver. Unfortunately the speed doesn't have to be that high to do some damage. I know a chap who wasn't wearing a belt, he broke the windscreen of his car with his head and he was only doing 10 mph!
Seems difficult to imagine the b-pillar would break away from the roof unless there was significant corrosion or faulty spot welds in the area, but it would probably distort if the impact was severe enough.
On the subject of seats. Modern seats are much stronger than 50's or 60's seats and generally provide better support for your back & neck. Old seats had more of a tendency to collapse in rear end shunts. With the Minor my concern would be an unrestrained rear seat passenger causing the front seat to move forward in a crash.
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:32 am
by Andymoor94
MCYorks wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:48 am
Andymoor94 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:33 pm
The 4 door Series II really doesn't have much in terms of fitting points for seat belts, especially given that I want to keep my trafficators, however even with a dinky 803cc engine, I don't fancy taking the full force of the steering wheel at 30-40mph. My better half insists that she doesn't want to make any long journeys without some form of restraint too.
Some decent 3-point belts are a good idea as it reduces the chance of your head or body making contact with the steering wheel, dash, rear-view mirror or windscreen. The Series II steering wheel isn't dished like the Minor 1000, so the centre boss will be closer to the driver. Unfortunately the speed doesn't have to be that high to do some damage. I know a chap who wasn't wearing a belt, he broke the windscreen of his car with his head and he was only doing 10 mph!
Seems difficult to imagine the b-pillar would break away from the roof unless there was significant corrosion or faulty spot welds in the area, but it would probably distort if the impact was severe enough.
On the subject of seats. Modern seats are much stronger than 50's or 60's seats and generally provide better support for your back & neck. Old seats had more of a tendency to collapse in rear end shunts. With the Minor my concern would be an unrestrained rear seat passenger causing the front seat to move forward in a crash.
I'm umming and ahhing about the seats. I'm not a big fan of them just for comfort, but I don't want to ruin the whole classic aesthetic with modern seats. This is just one of those things where I need to do some research
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:25 pm
by liammonty
The picture isn’t terribly clear, but it looks as though your other vehicle (of the French two-wheeled variety) is also woefully lacking support on its seat, and I can’t see a belt either
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:28 pm
by Andymoor94
liammonty wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:25 pm
The picture isn’t terribly clear, but it looks as though your other vehicle (of the French two-wheeled variety) is also woefully lacking support on its seat, and I can’t see a belt either
That's alright, I ride that with the intent of dying!
EDIT: I've changed my signature now, so it probably doesn't make sense now, but for the inquisitive, I had a picture of my VeloSolex cyclemotor
Re: Seat belts - Series II 4 door
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:51 pm
by pde2000
The likelihood of hitting your head on the turret reinforcement above the windscreen and getting a fracture is very real. A local garage was fitting some tires for me and the fitter described how his dad had nearly died that way in an identical car.