Cylinder Block Casting ID

[Boxofbits]

Hi All

I have a 10V 189E/Hxxxxx engine in my 1098cc van, but am a bit puzzled by the fact that the engine is black with a Morris black rocker cover. I thought all late Morris Minor Ad Park engines were green, and Austin black.

The block looks like 12A 407. Does this just relate to a 1098cc in-line engine?

Another question! Does anyone know the engine number prefix/coding for the early 1.1 Marina van engine.. Did it start 10V or were they completely different?

Regards

Kevin

[les]

Kevin, the following is my understanding of the issue. The Austin engine had an opening for a mechanical fuel pump, situated somewhere below the distributor. It will have a plate over the opening. Morris engines had the bossing for the hole only, therefore no need for a cover plate.

[RobThomas]

12A497 is a generic 998/1098 block. That number is cast usually below the rear tappet cover.

[Boxofbits]

Hi thanks for that. Les my engine has a black Morris rocker cover and black engine ( looks original paint), and it does have a mechanical fuel pump fitted?? If that casting number of 12A 497 is a generic 998/1100 as Rob pointed out, then surely the block with fuel pump access would be a different casting and not Morris? It does not have a spin on filter though, standard bowl type but with no oil filter warning light switch, so does that rule out even a very early Marina 1.1 van engine?

[philthehill]

Les
You will have to go to Spec Savers as the aperture for the fuel pump if there is one is below the front tappet cover on the N/S of the engine.
The distributer is on the O/S of the engine.
Phil

[philthehill]

According to the BL spares manual (Pt No: AKM0034 Jan 1977) the 1098cc Marina engine is prefixed by 10V.
If it is a 1098cc Marina engine it will have a strengthening plate (or remains of) between the bottom of the sump and bell housing.

Engine identification from the part engine number given above:-
10.....................1098cc
V.......................Vertical in line
189...................Group
E.......................Carburetor crankcase ventilation
H......................High compression
12345...............Engine number

[les]

Les
You will have to go to Spec Savers as the aperture for the fuel pump if there is one is below the front tappet cover on the N/S of the engine.
The distributer is on the O/S of the engine.
Phil

Yep I stand corrected, my mind eye visualised both objects the same side. Will book an appointment tomorrow!
--------- however to help identify the block. the point I'm making is an Austin one has the aperture, well mine has!

[philthehill]

Here is a 10V block with virtually the same engine number but low compression.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MORRIS-MINOR- ... 2970062310

Note the block casting number:- 12A497

[Boxofbits]

According to the BL spares manual (Pt No: AKM0034 Jan 1977) the 1098cc Marina engine is prefixed by 10V.
If it is a 1098cc Marina engine it will have a strengthening plate (or remains of) between the bottom of the sump and bell housing.

Engine identification from the part engine number given above:-
10.....................1098cc
V.......................Vertical in line
189...................Group
E.......................Carburetor crankcase ventilation
H......................High compression
12345...............Engine number

Hi Phil

That's interesting info thanks. One question , is it possible the very early 1.1 Marina van had a bowl type filter, prior to the canister type? Does your parts book give any info on that ? I worked on Marinas but can only remember them being canister type but maybe they used some older style filter systems for a while?

Regards

Kevin

[philthehill]

The Marina 1098cc 10V engine had a spin on/off canister filter fitted to filter head Pt No: 12A2032 which appears to be exactly the same as TAM2097 (Mini)
The feed pipe was Pt No: 88G538 which is the same as the Pre 'A' Plus Mini.

The engine may have come without the spin on/off filter assy and to get over the problem a Minor element type filter assy was utilised.

[martin418]

i rebuilt the original 1098 from a june 1970 saloon for a fellow club member and his engine has the fuel pump aperture machined out and blanked off with a plate ,also the sump flange is nearly 1/2'' thick and the block looks thicker / stronger all round

[Boxofbits]

The Marina 1098cc 10V engine had a spin on/off canister filter fitted to filter head Pt No: 12A2032 which appears to be exactly the same as TAM2097 (Mini)
The feed pipe was Pt No: 88G538 which is the same as the Pre 'A' Plus Mini.

The engine may have come without the spin on/off filter assy and to get over the problem a Minor element type filter assy was utilised.

Hi Phil

You are a mine of information! From that it looks like it could well be an early Marina engine, and your suggestion of the canister type filter being swapped is quite possible, especially as the oil filter warning light cable has been taped up, and I know some of the filter heads did not have this switch. Also, when I took the carburettor off the number was AUD 368 which according to my SU book is an early Marina 1.1.

There is one key piece of engine number info which might settle it, but is not clear,that being '189E'. The 'E' is valid in my case as it appears to have the large cylindrical breather type tappet chest cover, and the AUD 368 carb has a connection for the hose. BUT, what does '189' group denote? Is it confined to the Minor production or did it carry over to the early Marina, and hence branded Morris ?

Other noteworthy features are a black Morris engine and rocker cover which I didn't think any of the Moggies had.

Martin, that sounds like a thick flange block fitted to some of the A series?

Regards

Kevin

[philthehill]

The engine number is what counts and that according to my Marina parts lists confirms that what you have is a Marina 1.1 10V engine.
As regards the 189 (group number) that refers to the specification/vehicle (in your case Marina) of the engine.
As your engine is in a car that it was not designed for anything could have been done to it.
The correct carb listed in the parts list for the Marina 1098cc 10V engine is AUD627 (HS4).

[Boxofbits]

Thanks Phil

I'll check later to see if it had a sump to b/housing strengthener.

I have checked my SU reference book and it does list the AUD 627 as for models 1973 on with the full emmission control equipment ( ie diaphragm etc), but the one listed for 1972-73 is the AUD 368, which is the rubber hose directly from the side cover to the carburettor. That's the one I have which might also support it being a very early Marina 1.1 engine.

Chris [POMMREG] has already confirmed that my engine number H76063 is too high for end of production Traveller, and am I right in saying that no Traveller's had black engines, though on the other hand I thought when I worked for a BL dealer in the last year of production of Minors, I had seen black engines in them? Correct or not??!


Regards

Kevin

[philthehill]

The parts list for the 10V engine does not show the emission control valve just the oil separator/breather on the timing chain cover Pt No: 12G2507 and the pipe from the breather direct to the carb.
The manifold has a blanking plug fitted where the emission control valve would have been fitted if it had one.
The only absolutely positive way that you will confirm as to whether it is a Minor or Marina engine is to take the engine out and see what the rear of the crankshaft is like.
The 1098cc Marina engine and the 1275cc Marina engine had the same flywheel Pt No: 22G2232 which is secured by 6 bolts and one dowel.
The 1275cc 12V Marina and 1098cc 10V Marina used the same gearbox PT No: BHM506N. Later cars used similar gearboxes but with slightly different part numbers.
When the Marina engine is mated to the Minor gearbox a modified Minor 1098cc flywheel is normally used with the same bolt and dowel configuration as the Marina to allow fitment.
I think that we have got to the point of going around the same buoy time and time again. The main indicator as I said above is the engine number which indicates to me and is confirmed by the parts list data that the engine fitted is a 1098cc 10V Marina engine.
Below is what the rear end of a Marina crankshaft looks like:-

[Boxofbits]

Thanks Phil

My engine doesn't have the breather fitted to the timing cover, only the large tubular type fitted to the tappet chest front cover.

The engine has got to come out soon anyway, so that will prove it without doubt. I'm beginning to think it's a very late post Neiman Traveller engine, black painted from the factory. The Marina mechanical pump and AUD 368 carburettor have been added somewhere along the line it seems.

When I know more I'll re-post but thanks for all your detailed help and info, much appreciated.

Regards

Kevin

[philthehill]

Happy to be of help and it will be interesting to see what the rear of the crankshaft looks like.
Phil