Q plate concern

[jagnut66]

Hi,
I have just read an article in 'Practical Classics' concerning the DVLA issuing Q plates to all unregistered cars that are subsequently restored and then registered for use (page 12 of the December 2015 copy for those who want to read this for themselves).
They quoted the Beaulieu Austin 7 as an example, it is a 1927 chassis that will be rebuilt from another 1927 car, so all the parts will be accurately dateable to 1927, yet still this car will be issued with a Q plate.
Personally I think this is excessive government bureaucracy at it's worst.
Or is this this the thin end of the wedge of some threatened Euro-originated legislation that I recall reading about a few years ago, that people seemed to think would come to nothing in this country, whereby all 'classics' had to be 100% original and verified as such to qualify as classics.....
Either way it may be the cause for some concern to those restoring cars that haven't been on the road for a number of years and are no longer registered with the DVLA.
Not helped of course by the fact that we no longer have a human face to talk to when dealing with car related issues since they shut all the local offices.
As to the plate itself, the article doesn't say whether the owner can then purchase an age related plate and transfer it onto their vehicle or whether they are then stuck with a non-transferable Q plate.....
Nor does it clarify whether these cars will still qualify for 'Historic' tax status.
I have to say I think that this will just encourage more people to not inform the DVLA whenever they do alterations to their car (engines etc) for fear of having a Q plate slapped on it!
Best wishes,
Mike.

[philthehill]

This has been in the historic vehicle domain for some months.
In a nutshell:-
Basically the DVLA have a duty to keep accurate records of vehicles in the UK.
Vehicles built from parts new and period may have been incorrectly registered with a period manufacture date and issued with a registration number based on that date
DVLAs current position (as of June 2015) is that any vehicle(s) which have been built up from a collection of new and used parts or newly built replica vehicles with some original components are not entitled to be registered as genuine historic vehicles.
The DVLAs Reconstructed Classic Scheme allows enthusiasts who are in possession of any unregistered unidentifiable classic vehicles to register them with an age related registration provided those vehicle are built from period components of the same specification, all over 25 years old. sourced from more than one vehicle and be a true reflection of the marque.
It appears that DVLAs intention is to review all historic vehicle registrations and a registration plate may be issued/re-issued/allocated based on the age of the youngest component.
DVLA leaflet INF26 may give additional information.
The DVLA policy is evolving and being developed - so watch this space.
Phil

[jagnut66]

Both interesting and concerning at the same time.
Basically that Traveller that's just come up for sale on here in unrestored / disassembled state could end up with a Q plate (isn't this the one where the chap hasn't got a log book for it??).
Your reply doesn't clarify the Historic tax issue though, unless you are saying that it will also be taxed based on the youngest component?
Although you are saying this was put in place with good intentions, it could still mean a whole world of pain for some restorers, especially those who intend to modify in any way, servo assisted disc brakes for example.
Like I said, if the car is already on their database and simply on SORN, you will end up with allot of people who then put their cars back on the road not declaring any changes to the DVLA because they don't see why they should be penalized for them, with their car loosing it's registration.
For example a suffexless car could end up with an 'L' registration because the youngest component now dates to 1973.
Which will in turn mean their records remain, to some degree, inaccurate.
Best wishes,
Mike.

[philthehill]

As the proposal is under the DVLA review process the final outcomes should not be prejudged.
I believe that the proposal as and if applicable to Morris Minors is a long way off and if applicable the application process could be changed from that/those proposed for Historic Vehicles sic. Whilst I do not believe that the DVLA proposal will have an immediate impact for Morris Minor owners the DVLA proposal(s) should be kept to the fore and the MMOC should be at a minimum be aware of the DVLA proposals for Historic Vehicles and hopefully respond to the DVLA when requested to provide providence of individual vehicles - the provision of providence by the MMOC may (or may not) incur a cost to the vehicles owner.
I understand that DVLA will write to the owners of Historic Vehicles to provide evidence of the age and origin of the components of their vehicles along with any history of the vehicle and its constructed form. Upon receipt of this information DVLA will assess each on a case by case basis. It may be that certain vehicles have to be re-registered under a Q mark.
The subject vehicle must meet the criteria for Historic Status otherwise it is not entitled to be registered as a genuine Historic Vehicle.

[jagnut66]

The article in Practical Classics states that this will only effect cars not registered, so cars on SORN should be okay, unless the owner feels inclined to inform the DVLA that they have for example fitted a different engine, gearbox, brakes etc.
I fitted a 1275 MG Midget engine along with other sympathetic upgrades to Abby and informed the DVLA of the engine change, though I didn't see the need to mention the brakes etc. But that was under the old system, speaking to a human being at a local office. I'd had an engineer sign it off as fit for purpose, the DVLA were happy at that and amended my log book to show the car as a 1275cc engined Minor. Still Historic!
Life with the DVLA was so much more pleasant when they had local offices.....
However, although I thought the engine was from a Sixties Midget it would probably have been late Sixties at least, which means under what is proposed I could potentially have lost my registration and found myself re-issued with a G or a H plate, whether I liked it or not. And that's providing they didn't decide that the origin of my engine was indeterminate.....................
Which is why I think I personally would be less inclined to inform them of such things these days and I don't think I'll be alone in this.
The main impact though would, I believe, be for those with unregistered restoration cases, which having restored the car then have to go through the process of re-registering it.
Also, no matter how good the restoration, a car with a Q plate would be worth a lot less than a similar car still on its original registration.
It will be interesting to see how this impacts on restoration projects as a whole in the future. A chap who restores his car to concourse condition with a view to competing with it will be slightly miffed, I think, to find the DVLA issue him with a Q plate because, although original in style and spec, he's had to replace too much of the metal for it to be still considered 'Historic' in their eyes. Arguments will ensue................
But ultimately the (now faceless) DVLA will have the last say in the matter......
"Computer says no" springs to mind...............
Best wishes,
Mike.

[sid]

a bit worrying this..i've recently bought a 1955 motorcycle in bits,with a dating certificate from the owners club,for the frame and the engine,which were not built together when they left the factory.don't fancy a 'q' reg much.

[ianmack]

The problem here apparently is that some vintage cars have been newly manufactured, not fibreglass bodies with old beetle engines but exact tool room copies of the original cars. Some owners have obtained historic registrations for them and that concerns DVLA as of course they are strictly speaking newly manufactured cars. On the other hand they do not meet modern approval standards so it is difficult to see how they can be legitimately registered for UK road use at all.

For owners of regular classic cars the concern has to be how far they will take this. DVLA have been handling classic vehicle data for more than a decade now without revenue yield, and they do seem increasingly keen to demand fees and penalties whenever they get the chance. If they decide to review all historic registrations we can imagine how it will go. 'To retain historic status you must have your vehicle inspected and certified by an acceptable organisation at your expense. Submit all documentation to DVLA and we will consider whether we will accept it. Enclose the administration fee of £....whatever we feel like. In view of the risk of subsequent modification this process must be repeated every three years.

All too many of our public services seem to be moving from service to bullying, thieving rip off.

[Matt]

I have been through this...

I purchased a 1928 Morris Cowley in April without any documentation or identity (except it had the original car (vin) plate and the chassis no stamped in to the dumb iron.

It has lost its original engine and gearbox and has earlier (1925) parts fitted, which are similar but not the same.

Its also a cut down saloon, its had the roof and all bodywork behind the seats removed and a pickup body installed at some unknown point in the past.

Its got a lot of original parts, but is a bit of a hybrid showing features from different model years (birs from 28 model and bits from 29 model).

With the help of the bullnose morris club DVLA issued a registration number for it, accepting the evidence that it was a 1928 vehicle. The reports from the club said it was a complete vehicle in an unrestored but unroadworthy condition. I now have a vehicle registered 19/09/15, with a note on the logbook saying it is of 1928 manufacture. It has its historic tax status and MOT exemption.

The club registrar told me, however, of another which was all original, and had been restored over a period of time, the only fly in the ointment was that ot had a NEW (off the shelf) body fitted to the chassis. This earnt it a Q plate.

My advice if you have a pre '60 car is to get it registered with the DVLA prior to restoring it. If you have a post '60 car do as little as possible to get it through an MOT prior to registration!

[Matt]

And the problem did not originate because of owners restoring their cars with new bodies... its happened because replicas have been made claiming to be the original thing.

There are more Lotus Cortina's on the road in the UK than were sold worldwide,
At one point there were 3 Austin 7s on the road with the same chassis numbers (all registered as different vehicles)
The real kicker though is vintage bentleys. There are a large number of replicas claiming to be originals but made out of entirely new parts. The situation came to a head when a Bentley was dragged out of a lake, evidence was found as to when it went in (not sure how) and needless to say that there was a car that had been registered with its identity since...

I have heard rumour that 30-40% of the vintage bentleys on the road are actually faithful replicas.

I am in favour of stamping this out, but I cannot see the justification of preventing registration of vehicles which have matching engine/gearbox/chassis etc when they have had a replacement body fitted... especially when some variants of the car were supplied without bodies from the factory?

[jagnut66]

For owners of regular classic cars the concern has to be how far they will take this. DVLA have been handling classic vehicle data for more than a decade now without revenue yield, and they do seem increasingly keen to demand fees and penalties whenever they get the chance. If they decide to review all historic registrations we can imagine how it will go. 'To retain historic status you must have your vehicle inspected and certified by an acceptable organisation at your expense. Submit all documentation to DVLA and we will consider whether we will accept it. Enclose the administration fee of £....whatever we feel like. In view of the risk of subsequent modification this process must be repeated every three years.

I hope they don't decide to go down this route, as they may end up putting people off owning classics, thus undermining and destroying a thriving national hobby.
One which has also driven an industry in parts re-manufacture and supply, not to mention all the restoration businesses and classic car dealerships / auction houses out there, which is worth millions in turnover / revenue to the economy / goverments.
Something the politicians / civil servants that dictate policy to the DVLA might want to bear in mind before they upset the applecart......
Hopefully someone will or is already reminding them of this.

All too many of our public services seem to be moving from service to bullying, thieving rip off.

Yes, I can think of one or two so called public service sectors that this might not be so far from the truth when describing them nowadays........

[ianmack]

[
Hopefully someone will or is already reminding them of this.

[
[/b]
[/i][/quote]
We will have to wait for the detailed proposals and if they are too onerous we will all have to protest, as we did years ago when threatened with continuous taxation. It's no good relying on ' someone ' else to do it.

[SteveClem]

If enough good,honest,people make their views known it usually works out ok.
We all like to grumble about changes,politicians etc,but they are very receptive to feedback( votes?). Without getting too political I must say that living standards are so much improved from my childhood in the 1950's that I find it hard to believe that anyone in the uk would seriously want to divert radically from the centre ground that,on the whole,has done us all well.

[POMMReg]

If enough good,honest,people make their views known it usually works out ok.
We all like to grumble about changes,politicians etc,but they are very receptive to feedback( votes?). Without getting too political I must say that living standards are so much improved from my childhood in the 1950's that I find it hard to believe that anyone in the uk would seriously want to divert radically from the centre ground that,on the whole,has done us all well.

Are you talking about the UK, or Narnia?!

[les]

I was waiting for that! I suppose health care has improved but there again food wasn't pumped full of chemicals in the 50s.

[ianmack]

If enough good,honest,people make their views known it usually works out ok.
We all like to grumble about changes,politicians etc,but they are very receptive to feedback( votes?). Without getting too political I must say that living standards are so much improved from my childhood in the 1950's that I find it hard to believe that anyone in the uk would seriously want to divert radically from the centre ground that,on the whole,has done us all well.

When I suggested protest I was thinking of letters to MPS, not a riot!

Moggy Riot?

[Matt]

If enough good,honest,people make their views known it usually works out ok.
We all like to grumble about changes,politicians etc,but they are very receptive to feedback( votes?). Without getting too political I must say that living standards are so much improved from my childhood in the 1950's that I find it hard to believe that anyone in the uk would seriously want to divert radically from the centre ground that,on the whole,has done us all well.

When I suggested protest I was thinking of letters to MPS, not a riot!

Moggy Riot?

I have already written to Robert Goodwill (Under Secretary at Dept. Of trannspory) and my local MP. Both have asked the DVLA whats going on and I have had one letter from the DVLA stating nothing has changed they are still applying the old criteria (oh no they arn't) and a response from Robert Goodwill stating roughly the same! (I will be seeing Robert (socially as part of veteran L2B) on Saturday...)

[customjob]

Sandy Hamilton is your man to ask, but quote him from the National liaison meeting don't worry they will eventually see sense it may take a while but if you persist with them, you'll get them to see sense eventually. As said contact Sandy Hamilton.

[philthehill]

I think that you will find that DVLA are still using the old criteria but now with the intention of policing it more rigorously.

[SteveClem]

If enough good,honest,people make their views known it usually works out ok.
We all like to grumble about changes,politicians etc,but they are very receptive to feedback( votes?). Without getting too political I must say that living standards are so much improved from my childhood in the 1950's that I find it hard to believe that anyone in the uk would seriously want to divert radically from the centre ground that,on the whole,has done us all well.

Are you talking about the UK, or Narnia?!

Not Narnia,Chris, it was a very poor council estate in Nottingham. I guess 300 houses and 10 cars in the 1950's. On a cold winter people took off internal doors to cut up and burn on the fire. The council didn't plant trees because they were seen as free firewood. My mum still lives in the same house. Ok it's not Buckingham Palace but so much better than 50yrs ago. And you can't find anywhere to park now. All nice big newish things, never seen a minor there apart from mine though.
Suppose the concept of poverty has changed over the years.
I was dead lucky because I passed my 11plus and got to a grammar school... worked for me but no longer socially acceptable,apparently.

[aupickup]

and theres still poverty in lots of areas
things have not changed that much for a lot of folk