Any thoughts on the brake cylinder seal kits of today.

[amgrave]

Hello all

I bought a 1963 4 door last May and the MOT, although it passed, highlighted a squashed brake line, some corrosion to others and one rubber hose near needing replacement. I have decided to rebuild the system but I am a bit worried about the fact some of the parts available now are sub standard. I will replace the master cylinder with a new one but as the brakes are working I will keep the wheel cylinders but clean them up then replace the seals, renew the brake pipes and the three rubber hoses. Has anyone had or heard of any problems with the new parts mentioned and in particular the seal kits for wheel cylinders.

Fing's ain't what they used to be.

Any thoughts on the subject are appreciated.

[bmcecosse]

The repair kits will be fine, for the little they cost - provided your cylinders are 'originals'. Get some 'Red Rubber Grease' and use it liberally when rebuilding the cylinders. I would leave the master cylinder well alone unless you have reasons to suspect it? Make sure the new brake lines are Kunifer (not dangerous 'copper' ). Is the squashed line on top of the rear axle ??? Run the new lines along the side of the axle...and fit new bump stops !

[amgrave]

Thank you BMC for your reply.

The squashed brake line is the one from the master to the front, some idiot in the past has caught it with a jack or stand. The new pipes will need to be held in the correct place so it does not happen again. Suppliers don't usually specify what the pipes are made of but if they are not copper can I assume they will be Kunifer?

The reason I want to change the master is cos it will give me a fresh start with the brake system and provided I change the fluid regularly it should last quite a few years to come.

[Declan_Burns]

I would not assume they are Kunifer and I am not aware of any supplier who supplies a Kunifer kit as standard. You may have to have them made up or do it yourself but that is the way to go. In some countries copper brake lines are not even allowed. The new repro master cylinders are ever so slightly wider and may need dressing with a file or be ground to fit inside the chassis. If all is OK with your existing M/C, I would leave well enough alone. It can be a pig of a job to replace.
Regards
Declan

[amgrave]

Thank you for your reply Declan.

I did not realise copper pipe was as bad as people think. I have had a look at the usual suppliers and as you say it seems they only stock copper. I have been on to Automec to see if they can make me up a set.

I value all input from the members as they have been keeping their Minor's on the road a lot longer than I have and have gained a lot of knowledge from it.

I will change the master cylinder for a new Lockheed one as now I am getting older I want to have a fresh start with the brake system so I don't have to do the work at a later date if you can understand that. However after what you have said I am now prepared to do a bit of fettling to get it to fit. I understand it is a pig replacing it as regards the torsion bar and tight fit but I would rather do it now than in possibly 10 years time.

Thanks again for the replies.

Regards
Andy

[Declan_Burns]

Andy,
Here's a link to a chap who makes kunifer brake lines. I bought brake lines for the MG from him and a very nice chap to deal with. Try contacting him and maybe he can do a kit for you. I found his pricing quite reasonable and the quality was A1.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cupro-Nickel- ... 43da12b36d


Regards
Declan

[amgrave]

Thanks for posting the link Declan.
I have decided to have a go at making the pipes up myself using copper/nickel, I can get a 25 foot roll for £15 enough for the whole car. I have found an old post giving the details for making them up ie: length and union sizes and a mate has got a flare tool I can borrow. Wish me luck!
Thanks for your input, much appreciated.
Regards
Andy

[mike.perry]

When you replace the master cylinder bolts fit them from the outside with a washer behind the head to make sure that the ends of the bolts do not touch the torsion bar

[GBond]

This is a matter of personal choice but, if you're going to replace everything and decide to use silicone brake fluid be aware that not all seals respond well to it. To check, leave the seals immersed in the fluid for a few days and check that they don't swell or degrade.

[bmcecosse]

Avoid the silicone fluid.... Kunifer is harder to form that copper (or bundy) brake pipe - put a drop of brake fluid on the end to help lubricate the die as you make off the ends.

[amgrave]

Good advise from both Mike and BMC. I had heard that a drop of fluid or even red rubber grease on the end of the pipe before forming helps the tool to make the form and last longer. A former owner I worked with advised the same regards fitting the master cylinder bolts back to front and packing them to clear the torsion bar.
The use of Silicone fluid is very controversial so I won't mention if I was thinking of using it. Don't want the old can of worms spilling over do we
Thanks for the input Mike, GBond and BMC.

[Trickydicky]

A former owner I worked with advised the same regards fitting the master cylinder bolts back to front and packing them to clear the torsion bar.


As you have to move the torsion bar to get the bolts out, here's a radical thought, why not put them back as they should be?

[ianmack]

A former owner I worked with advised the same regards fitting the master cylinder bolts back to front and packing them to clear the torsion bar.


As you have to move the torsion bar to get the bolts out, here's a radical thought, why not put them back as they should be?

Probably better not to bend the torsion bar more often than you have to.

[bmcecosse]

The bolts are fine 'other way round' - my nuts are nowhere near the bars......

[Declan_Burns]

Keeping your nuts away from bars is highly recommended
Regards
Declan

[les]

Some bars have two grooves that align with the nuts, can't fathom out why!
Another point of interest, after reading some reports of people worried about copper pipes, I thought maybe it was time to think about replacing mine. I phoned Automec to get a price etc, and said I want copper nickle, as people have expressed a view that copper was iffy, to which I was informed that both materials are the same price and pre war, all lines were made of copper, the shortage during war saw production end in favour of other materials I've no reason to doubt them, so I'm not rushing to disturb my system now. It only takes a few stories to make one worry!

[chesney]

Mine are as they 'should' be (in inverted commas) with the bolt heads on the torsion bar side.
Reason? On my '58 I once raised it on the 2 post lift and while underneath it one of the bolts dropped on my head, the bolts that hold the master cylinder in that is.
As it happens they weren't bolts, they were the original bolts that had had for some inexplicable reason the head and the nut side cut off, and both just slotted back in. The optimist in me assumes that they left them in there purely to bleed the brakes while waiting on new bolts, but I doubt it.
Since that moment I've always wondered what would happen if the bolts were allowed to drop out, without the security of the torsion bar there. That's reason enough for me to keep them there, as unlikely as it seems.
Having said that, all my cars to date have had completely renewed braking systems, so I've no need to go anywhere near the master cylinder retaining bolts for a long while yet.

[bmcecosse]

The problem with copper is the high risk of work hardening failure. When I got my Trav it had some copper pipes - I was doing something under the car and brushed against a brake pipe and it came off at the nipple !! The standard brake pipe used to be 'bundy' pipe - plated steel. Perfectly good - but of course rusts in time. Kunifer doesn't work harden, and doesn't rot...

[les]

There could be other reasons why the pipe broke, sometimes the pipe can be twisted by the nipple if not watchful, that can weaken it, as one example. I thought work hardening was caused by constantly hammering/stressing the material. However there will always be two schools of thought on this, although hearing the opinion of the company and the fact that it is legally available was/is somewhat reasuring.

[bmcecosse]

It had just crumbled away - the pipe is initially 'worked' when the flared end is formed, and then if the pipe is allowed to vibrate... It amazed me - I didn't know about the work hardening menace at the time. Better safe than sorry!