Coolant question ...

Post by **JustinMinor1000** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:02 pm

It's getting cold now and I'm about to do the whole "Winter Service" thing.

For some reason I have 20 litres of Massey Ferguson Antifreeze in five litre bottles. It claims to be Inhibiting ETC ETC.

I was going to use the Antifreeze neat, the water round is hard. Does anyone know any problem with that ?

I do not know how long ago the coolant in mirium was changed, At LEAST two years but probably more like ten. What is the best way to flush the system ? Hosepipe through the heater inlet ? Followed by an airline to blow the water out again ?

Any definate do's and don'ts ?

justin

1969 Morris 1000

Post by **Stig** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:16 am

I've heard conflicting comments about using neat antifreeze, some say it cools better, others say not as well. I can't imagine it'll be a problem though. As for flushing, it's usually reckoned to be best if you shove the hosepipe in such that it flows in reverse to the usual to shift the rust, silt etc. Go easy with the airline though, the system's not used to particularly high pressures.
As for the hard water issue, I'm sure someone on here (?) suggested using kettle descaler before flushing, but I haven't tried it myself. Anyone care to comment on safety/suitability?
Oh yes, I recommend a winter (88deg C) thermostat for a warmer heater (and theoretically better mpg too).

Post by **rayofleamington** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:43 am

Anyone care to comment on safety/suitability?

I tried about half a dozen products and the Bars Flush stuff you can get from most automotive spares places was one of the few that seemed to do anything.

Post by **Kevin** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:13 pm

If your local water is too hard just buy the cheapest mineral water in your local supermarket our local Asda does its own make in 3-4 litre bottles and make it to roughly a 50-50 mix

Post by **bigginger** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:19 pm

Hear hear. it's a lot better for the engine, I'd hate it to be in the same state as my kettle.
a

Post by **johnm** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:23 pm

I'd be cautious about neat antifreeze and over cleaning the system, so long as there's no overhaeting involved.

Antifreeze and descaler will ensure that any weaknesses in the system appear as leaks almost instantly!

Post by **JustinMinor1000** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:29 pm

Kevin wrote:If your local water is too hard just buy the cheapest mineral water in your local supermarket our local Asda does its own make in 3-4 litre bottles and make it to roughly a 50-50 mix

Or in fact even Evian would not be too good for Mirium

Post by **rayofleamington** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:55 pm

Erm - surely mineral water is meant to contain minerals and stuff?? (ie - it's hard water)
If you're that worried, use distilled water but that's expensive overkill.
Second slightly less mad option - get a Brita water filter and use the water from that for the car.
Sensible option - use tap water and don't constantly overheat the car. If the water doesn't boil away, the minerals stay in solution...

Post by **bigginger** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:20 pm

You've never tried London tap water - there the lumps aren't in solution, they're just floating around! I also don't believe that bottled water is nearly as hard as the tap water in the Mendips, or Buckinghamshire or presumably loads of other places that I haven't lived. Doesn't (and this is a genuine question) some of the 'hardness' come out of the water before it's boiling away?

a (Chemistry 'O' level U, and proud of it!)

Post by **Pyoor_Kate** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:21 pm

Or just boil the kettle and chuck the water in a bucket and when it's cool use that for your car

I used some Wynn's radiator flush; which certainly cleared an awful lot of crud out of my system. However, it also stopped my heater working quite effectively [by dumping a large quantity of crud in the matrix, I would guess].

On the other hand I probably should have serviced my heater before...

Post by **Relfy** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:28 pm

'bottled' is different to 'mineral' as Ray says.... you can buy both. Just read the label. Mineral is more expensive generally too, I think.

For interest's sake, Bottled normal water is a way of using people's neuroses to sell normal water in 'packets' because people think that will hold less threat of bugs and taste less of chlorine etc...but there are actually less regulations about levels of microbes for bottled water than tap water.....hence the fact they dont taste of chlorine I suppose.....

If the water is very hard, i.e. saturated with calcium carbonates, then it takes less effort (heat) for it to come out of solution than if it were less hard.

Post by **bigginger** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:28 pm

Or just boil the kettle and chuck the water in a bucket and when it's cool use that for your car

Good point - one day I'll even start doing it!
a

Post by **Relfy** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:36 pm

Yup, actually whats antifreeze made of? I know calcium carbonate precipitates out of solution when you mix in detergents (and soap?) - why its so hard to make a lather in hard-water....... might anti-freeze do the same? That wouldnt be good.... nah. It cant do.

Post by **Pyoor_Kate** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:36 pm

Good point - one day I'll even start doing it!

See, this is what comes of using a 1960s iron. It *really* objects to hard water (spitting out little bits of limescale all over the very few clothes I iron) so I learned long ago that a nice cheap way to fill the iron was to run it through the kettle first

Post by **Relfy** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:45 pm

You iron, Kate? What do you do that for then?

Mind you, I'm not exactly proud of my principle that once its been on for ten minutes the creases will fall out anyway......

Post by **les** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:51 pm

Next time you defrost the fridge collect the water; it's distilled and free! Some manufacturers recommend using distilled water for it's lack of impurities, especially in aluminium engines.

Post by **Relfy** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:57 pm

les wrote:Next time you defrost the fridge collect the water; it's distilled and free! Some manufacturers recommend using distilled water for it's lack of impurities, especially in aluminium engines.

yugh

filter it first.......

Post by **les** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:21 pm

Depends on the state of ones fridge! ( I take it you're a student!!!) However my main point being, it's distilled.

Post by **d_harris** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:37 pm

les wrote:( I take it you're a student!!!).

Oi! we're not all that bad. well, matt is!

Post by **ColinP** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:51 pm

Chemistry Again!

That's made you all turn off hasn't it!

If you use ordinary (Thames) hard water in the cooling system, some of the calcium salts will precipitate when you heat the water above 50C.

But, the quantity is relatively small, and won't increase unless you have to keep topping the coolant up - find that leak and stop it!). Most of the brown gunge is actually iron being dissolved from the engine and then precipitated from the water.
That's why you should always use a corrosion inhibitor in the coolant - it stops the corrosion inside.

Most antifreeze contain ethylene glycol (OH - CH2-CH2- OH), which is soluble in water (in all proportions) or propylene gycol (stick anothe CH2 in the middle).

It won't react with the dissolved or precipitated salts. Honest.

Calcium cabonate (limestone) is not very soluble, and when you add soap (sodium stearate - which is soluble) you get a scum of calcium steatate (which isn't).

That's why we have detergents for washing these days - they don't form scum.

And for history, WW2 aircraft used ethylene gycol as coolant (well the Merlin Engined ones) - it's better at moving the heat around - but it's also a lot thicker than water, so it'll put a bit more strain on the water pump I think that 50% is as much as you need.

Colin