Morris Minor Owners Club

Hi,

After a bit of advice before I pull the engine apart. I recently fitted a 1098 to my Morris that hasn't been run for a very very long time. After the usual checks and new oil + filter new ignition parts and spark plugs I attempted to start the engine. Amazingly it started very well and after a slight haze of smoke from the exhaust it settled down to a steady and smooth idle! Top job....although that's what I thought.

After getting rid of a load of other noises (fitted a new timing chain, dyno and water pump) I still have one more very worrying noise. When I start the engine up cold there is a loud ticking noise that increases with revs. p.s. I have adjusted the tappets.

After a week or so of driving it the engine still pulls very strong, starts absolutely on the button, idles well and sounds lovely when warm but still when cold I get this loud ticking noise.

I took the rocker cover off today and with the engine cold and running I went over everything with a screwdriver to my ear. I have managed to track the noise down to the rocker gear/head area. Putting the screwdriver on the top of the rocker arm mounts the noise gets louder and louder as you move towards the back of the engine. When you are on the mount between rockers 7+8 above piston 4 the noise is very loud and very distinct. It obviously has something not right in that area but any ideas what? It sounds like a faster tick than a broken or damaged valve.

Also worth noting that the engine has developed a bad oil lead at the back of the engine between the engine and g/box. Could this be the dreaded big ends? Carbon build-up on the piston?

The A-Series often sounds 'tappety' even when everything is well-adjusted. I wouldn't consider it anything to worry about. In your words it 'idles lovely' - nothing to bother about.

Your oil leak could be any number of things, from sump gaskets, back plate gasket, oil pump gasket or some people have trouble with oil leaking from the rear of the crankshaft. If it's any of the last 3, it's engine out to fix.

Are you getting a good flow of oil to the rocker shaft. There should be an oilway in the head lined up with the oilway in the front pedastal and the oilway in the rocker shaft

Your noise sounds very similar to mine, although i am not convinced it is the rocker gear. My engine has only done 500 miles since a refresh, and am trying to solve this, otherwise it runs very nicely. Mine is very much like a ticking noise

Re your oil leak -have you got the appropriate breather/vents to the rocker cover/tappet chest? If these are not effective this could be encouraging oil out of the back of the engine

Thanks for the replies guys. The thing that worries me is that the noise goes away after about 2/3mins of running...almost like something is not getting oil.

The rocker gear is coated in a lovely film of oil and if you take the cover off and rev the engine it goes everywhere so deff a good flow!

Breather wise I have a rocker cover with take off which goes to the inlet and I also have a pushrod inspection cover with breather, so think the engine can get rid of pressure ok. Unless a piston ring is stuck from being sat and is letting pressure into the crank case. Ill do a compression test tonight and report the figures back.

The noise is definitely not right as its very loud when cold but then you pretty much cant hear it when its warm! Im guessing big ends would be the other way around? So it gets noisy when the oil is thinner?

Is a tiny bit of crank movement ok in and out? My original 948 wont move in and out at all but this 1098 has just enough to make a noise if you push in and out?

Could be cam follower wear - if it's really worrying you - take out the push rods, remove the back cover - and hook the two followers out with your finger for inspection. Of course - this doesn't really let you see the state of the camshaft lobes. Crank should have ~ 5 thou end float. Crankcase breathing is everything re oil leaks.... If possible get an HS2 carb with the breather intake on the side - and of course check the pipes are all clear.

I'll be interested if you can find a cure for this, my friends Traveller does exactly the same thing but is otherwise fine.
I wonder if it's caused by the valve that is open when the engine is off and cooling down loosing the oil film somewhere?

The only think that made me think it wasn't the rockers was that it sounds faster than that.

When you listen to it the ticking sounds like it would be in time with the piston moving rather than a rocker. When you put the screwdriver on the rocker gear bracket and listen to it, it is very loud, definitely something badly worn, loose or hitting.

I am quite worried it might be the big ends as the oil light isn't exactly speedy at going out when you start it in the morning! Don't have the tools to read the pressure but its obviously not high. As said above though I would assume if the big ends were going then the noise would start when the oil is hot rather than cold?

It takes some time for the oil pressure to get up in a morning (like me) as it is very cold and thick (unlike me). The oil lamp switch could also be rated at a higher pressure. This is why a cold engine should never, ever be raced, modern or vintage.

I honestly think you are making much ado about nothing; you say that:

AndrewSkinner wrote: The thing that worries me is that the noise goes away after about 2/3mins of running...almost like something is not getting oil.

but the disappearance of the noise means things are getting oil.

How many A-Series engined cars have you had? They were never the most silent of engines, and the early ones especially can be noisy.

Oil pressure relief valve opening and closing?? Hard to imagine it wouldn't be muffled by the thick/cold oil all around it.....but certainly as the oil heats and thins - the valve will not be opening/closing at anything like the same rate....

ok so some interesting and fairly conclusive findings to report!

First I did a compression test, I did it cold so not sure if it would be an accurate representation of the piston ring health but just wanted to rule out head gasket, readings from cylinder 1 backwards were all about 155psi and the back cylinder was 160 so I was happy with that.

Checked the plugs and they were all a similar lovely biscuit colour so happy with that...

Next I wanted to investigate the oil and make sure it really was circulating well and this is where I found out a pretty horrific issue with sludging! I had noticed when I got the engine all the internals were coated in a slimey gooey oil film, I didnt think much of it knowing that when it got hot it would be washed away by the fresh oil (was planning on changing the oil again soon). looking at the rocker gear yesterday they are now all clean and coated in nice fresh clean film of oil BUT what I didnt think about was the oil filter. I canged the oil filter when I first change the oil (Before I attempted to start the engine) knowing the paper filter would be shot. Ive been using the car knowing that it had fresh oil and a new filter but the sludge around the engine has managed to clog the oil filter.

I dropped the oil filter tonight and found about 1/2 inch of black sludge sitting in the bottom of the filter and the holes around the paper eliment were barely visible. I drained the oil again, fitted another new filter and fired it up. The oil pressure light seems to go out much faster and the noise has almost gone when cold. Im guessing that the blocked oil filter was stopping oil getting to the required bits untill it was hot enough and thin enough to flow faster. All I can do now is watch the oil (Flush again soon) and hope the possible lack of oil hasnt damaged anything.

Question though, does the oil get sucked through the filter into the oil pump or does the oil pump push the oil through the filter to the engine? Im assuming it sucks it through and therefore a blocked oil filter could put the pump under a lot of strain and ultimately struggle to push enough oil at a high enough pressure round the engine?

Good detective work - the pump pushes the oil through the paper filter. However - it SUCKS the oil up from the sump, through a fine steel mesh filter. That too could be blocked, and a thick layer of cr@p in the sump too...... I would drop the sump and clean the filter and the sump.......

Ok not as good as I hoped

Got in the car this morning, fired it up and surprise surprise the loud tick was back!

same symptoms... about 3/4 mins into the drive its slowly quietens down. Back to the drawing board! Good suggestion with the oil pick-up, ill drop the sump off tonight and give the pan a good clean out and the pickup.

Does anyone have any advice on the crank end float? Should there be any? Im also temped to just drop the big end bearing shell gearbox side to make sure they are ok after the possible oil starvation and that the noise isn't coming from something around that area.

Crank should be ~5 thou float. No harm looking at a big end, but I doubt it will be 'encouraging'....

I'd be tempted to run some flushing oil through the engine to reach the various passageways and drillings that you can't get to with a scraper.
Do you know what sort of oil had been used in it previously?

Yeah that's not a bad shout! Ill pick up a can of engine flush tonight.

Not sure what oil was used but im guessing some very old school stuff. I race Honda C90s and I had an engine once that had previously been run on very old school mineral oil that had got way too hot then left for years, dried all over the engine like a thick goo (enough to seize it). After trying various chemicals the only thing that managed to shift the goo was heat. Had to put the whole engine in my mums oven, get it really hot run it and then drop the oil hot. A few runs of this finally flushed it clean....now the fastest engine I have (After some tweaks ).

Ill run some engine flush and then drop the oil again.

Ive got to drive the moggy to Paris next week so just want it to be ok for that!

When you say the big ends wont look encouraging do you mean they aren't going to look good anyway due to age etc?

I would be loathe to use flush if the engine is as full of muck as you say. You'll just dislodge more which will then clog everything else up... Also, I think the filter will just be bypassed if it gets totally blocked, so that shouldn't have been the cause of your bother.

Forget the 'engine flush' - one of the bigger 'con' tricks in the automotive world. A good physical clean of the sump and intake mesh will do no harm.

Ive added a video of the noise the engine is making. Sounds pretty bad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOK5arWk ... e=youtu.be

Andrew,

Can you open the bonnet and video the engine at different engine speeds? Try not to move about while you are doing it as the movement is picked up by the microphone and masks what we are trying to hear!