Rusty cars for dummies

[Relfy]

Dolly has just joined me as her honoured 8th owner. I'm in need of a step-by-step guide for dummies.... what doesn't matter if its rusty, what does, what does it look like when you've removed enough with yer wire brush, what to paint with what, etc? Anyone know a good book or article at my level?

[Chris Morley]

Oh dear - so you didn't do your homework before buying! Let's hope that your car doesn't turn out to be another rust trap needing £100s of pounds worth of welding.

All rust is bad news - wherever there is rust it will continue to get worse until the rotten section is cut out and new metal is welded in (and then painted). Unfortunately professional welders don't come cheap....

For the MOT the following aren't so important unless sharp edges are formed:, 1) rusty wings (can be unbolted and replaced with new wings), £300 typically for all 4. However a rusty wing often hides more holes in the inner wings behind. 2) Rusty door and 3) rusty boot bottoms.

Rust holes anywhere on the underside are bad news. Especially bad are the sills, crossmember, chassis legs (the box sections beneath the engine) and anywhere near to where the rear leaf springs are attached. All will mean an MOT failure and if very bad can be dangerous to the occupants and weaken the car's overall strength. Any bubbling on the car's main body or doors which flex when opening indicate problems in the making. Wet carpets are often a sign that a previous owner didn't take care of the car and that the rusting process has begun under the rearseat.

The MMOC's main site has a pdf file explaining the pitfalls of buying and showing a minor saloon's underside. See:
http://www.morrisminoroc.co.uk/technicaltips/buy.pdf

Lindsay Porter's guide to Minor restoration (Haynes) is a good book and so is the out of print (practical classics) guide to Minor restoration.

Ideally rust removal will mean bringing back to bare (shiny) metal, praying that rust holes don't appear in the process. Next should come an etch primer, then 2 or more coats of anti-rust primer , filler as required, more primer (high build?) then at least several coats of paint.

[Relfy]

Don't panic Chris, her rust isn't so bad (she says with confidence) - its just that I didnt know how to deal with what is there.

- I figured I wont learn anything from a perfect car - that was one major reason for buying Dolly. In my experience, mechanics is still a man's thing, but only cos men treat it like a secret society and wont teach a girl like they'd teach a guy. They'd rather do it for you, which although I'm not ungrateful, sucks, as i really want to learn.

The other reason is to get me from A-B in my job hunt. As anyone who's been to the far-end of Cornwall will know, nothing is near anything else - especially not the rest of the country! She does that very well, and is great fun to drive!

.....Since buying her, I'm realising her local history too. And also that lots of Moggie's dont appear to have any real history anymore cos of vital parts being changed and being passed along without any documents or stories. I'm pretty much committed to keeping her healthy for the joy of her.
(If it was up to me, she probably wouldn't be called Dolly, but thats her name as far back as I know, and it suits her, when I think about it).

No money at the moment, but when/if I ever have any, I wont begrudge it (though there are limits!). I like her.

[rayofleamington]

mechanics is still a man's thing, but only cos men treat it like a secret society and wont teach a girl like they'd teach a guy.

What a load of sexism!
Hopefully you will give it a go without such preconceptions getting in your way ;-) and if you ever need any advice you'll get an abundance of it on here (not just from the guys)
If there is a 'mechanics' secret society out there I've never come across it. Nobody taught me car mechanics - I learnt by trial and error - at the end of the day you either have an aptitude for it or you don't regardless of sex.

[Relfy]

Ray, are you male or female?

[Kevin]

Ray, are you male or female?

If you look on the home page 2nd right your question will be answered

In my experience, mechanics is still a man's thing, but only cos men treat it like a secret society and wont teach a girl like they'd teach a guy.

I think you will find that happens more in the more rural areas than in the towns (Smoke) type areas most of us live in where help is more freely given and there are a few Girls/Ladies who frequent this site.

[Relfy]

Its great that you learned by yourself Ray, but you still must have needed someone or something to teach you the principals? I know how a basic motor works and electromagnets etc. But a car is a bit more than that if you see what I mean...and i havn't yet found a book that assumes you know as little as me. But then I've always needed to know fundamentals to understand anything. Thats why my Maths teacher found me so difficult.

I didn't really mean theres a secret society, but perhaps its different down here where we're primitive Hahaha. I'm just joking.....

But seriously, what happens to me is, if someone says "You need to change such-and-such" and I say "Oh right, what does that do then?" They'll give me a long look and say "Don't worry, I'll do it" (or sometimes an explanation that uses jargon I dont understand). Which makes me exasperated - I have to drop the point, cos they're being kind and I dont want to seem like I dont appreciate the gesture, but I'm left still wanting to know!!

- and there's no reason why I shouldn't either. I've managed to understand hydrology well enough, and thats pretty technical.

......although to be fair the guys down trelawney have been pretty good when pushed. I had a great explanation (with props) of what it means to blow your head gasket a few weeks ago! (Dont worry that was a different car. Not mine either. Heehee).

And Keith (classic man) has been a JEWEL, and I think enjoys explaining things to me. Perhaps its cos he's 'retired' and has more time.

AND as you say everyone here is as free with advice as anyone could wish for! Hoorah!

Perhaps the problem is most women dont want to know.

Oh dear! That really was a feminist comment! I never have been up until now!
Enough with the ranting. On with the rust.

[Relfy]

If you look on the home page 2nd right your question will be answered

Aha! There he is.
Who's car is that? I'm jealous.

[Kevin]

That is the immortal Number 1 the 1st Moggie ever made and it belongs to Gaydon Museum where the photo was taken.

[Relfy]

I think you will find that happens more in the more rural areas than in the towns (Smoke) type areas most of us live in where help is more freely given and there are a few Girls/Ladies who frequent this site.

Its not that help is not given - its too freely given!! People will do it all for me, free of charge, thinking thats even kinder than telling me how to do it myself.
Which it is, and which is why I hesitate to fight back!

I dont expect you'd get that in the smoke. I've lived there too.

[rayofleamington]

most women dont want to know.

more generalising!! Oh dear ;-)
I do know where you're coming from, but as i've given guidance to many people including my sister (who is pretty handy) on how to do stuff on cars I guess it never hurts to challenge precoonceptions - We are generally very PC on the board and hopefully male/female makes no difference. What can sometimes be tough is to work out how experienced someone is, as advice is often pitched at the wrong level (either to low or too high) andcan sometimes seem confusing or patronising if it's taken badly.

Anyway back to your other question, my dad taught me which way to tighten a nut. The rest I picked out of kids 'how it works' books and later in life those low level books like 'you and your bike' which gave a basic overview of all the bits on a motorbike. After having lots of worn out and frequently broken motorbikes, moving on to cars didn't really involve learning much that was new (except the ability to get covered from head to toe in black oily grime)

[Relfy]

most women dont want to know.


more generalising!! Oh dear

You're winding me up aren't you.

I like the way you ommitted the 'perhaps'

Its ok - I'm not feeling patronised or sexually excluded (or whatever), and I dont have any pre-conceptions. I'm just saying how little I know and that's where I'm starting from. Your kiddies books sound like the thing for me! We used to have a ladybirds one somewhere.

[Relfy]

That is the immortal Number 1 the 1st Moggie ever made and it belongs to Gaydon Museum where the photo was taken.

Cor

[Pyoor_Kate]

Mechanics a man's thing. Oh rats... best take those springs off my car then, oh, and Nikki! Come here! We need to take the springs back off your mog....and, um, that angle grinder, best take it back so.

*grins*

The thing is, Relfy is right to some extent. A lot of women aren't interested in this stuff - but a lot of that is I suspect upbringing; and a lot of men do patronise / assume inability when dealing with women and mechanics. Countless times (back when I had less time) I used to take my car to the garage and say "this is the problem". On one occasion it took 5 visits and multiple replacement parts (at the expense of the garage) before they admited that I'd been right in the first place, and did what I actually *asked* them to do.

I get it in shops too, it took me ages to work out that feining some slightly lower level of knowledge actually got me better service in most motorfactors. It's frustrating, but it still happens. I'm very lucky, my dad was into the whole self-sufficency thing, and both me and my sister learned all about how to service cars. One of my early memories is me, my sister and my dad changing the clutch on a Mk II Escort!

Anyway, back to the topic. On here they're all very good, as a general rule and don't patronise the women on the board If you want a good, basic, mechanic book, go and hunt round charity and second hand shops, and find one of those nice, explanitory books of the mid 60s, or even late 50's. They'll tell you the basic principles of everything. Also get yourself a haynes manual.... It's full of lies ("unscrew the four lock nuts my ****"), but it's very useful, as are quite a lot of the other car-maintainance-of-the-60's books around (I've got a lush one called BLMC Morris Minor 1000 Repairs, which is handy for a second opinion).

Another thing that's important is a decent set of tools. Or at least an okay set of tools. Luckly for me, living in Brizzy there's some really good tool places, some of whom know me and indeed, in the case of one actually lent me some tools ('cos I was only going to use them once!). My toolkit keeps growing, as I take on more and more of the work on the car.... Basics though - a decent socket set, a set of spanners and some screwdrivers.... And for your rust? A wire brush

[Relfy]

Kate, yes thats exactly what I mean. Its not necessarily patronising, its just frustrating, and makes it harder to learn, if like me, your dad doesn't give much explanation.

As for tools - thats where he and my brother-in-law are superb!! They have them and they'll lend them freely. They'll also tell me how to use them.....

Come to think of it, that doesn't make sense does it? Maybe my dad probably doesn't explain things cos he wants me to go ahead and do it and learn from that....

Only up until now, if I've been too scared, as it would have been his car I wrecked!

[Kevin]

its just frustrating, and makes it harder to learn, if like me, your dad doesn't give much explanation.

Well I have 2 girls and the eldest still struggles to open the bonnet to top up the washer water, but my younger one is far more clued up, so its not always the teacher at fault sometimes its the pupil, but this applies equally to boys as well.

[Relfy]

Well I have 2 girls and the eldest still struggles to open the bonnet to top up the washer water, but my younger one is far more clued up, so its not always the teacher at fault sometimes its the pupil, but this applies equally to boys as well.

That was patronising. Even though true, of course.

It sounds like your girls have a teacher. There have never been any attempts at lessons here, which is what I'm lacking.

Not that I'm in anyway upset about that - Dad is telecommunications, so he's not a mechanic either and thats probably why he's been reluctant to teach what he does know. He'll wax lyrical on trans-atlantic cable systems if you ask him!!

I'm 25, have a degree and an msc in hydrology, and I can work out how lots of lab/field equipment etc works quite easily... geophysics, water and soil analysis etc. I just dont know anything about cars, welding or rust. I dont have a problem with that and I'll learn pretty quick i expect, being as Dolly needs most of it done!

Another part of not having done so is not having the car to do it with before...

[Pyoor_Kate]

Yeah, I guess I forget how lucky I am to have been taught this stuff (mind you my sister can barely open the bonnet on her new car, heh (it's just not her thing)).

My dad's actually a computer (network hardware) designer, it's just he's one of these incredibly practical human beings. It's from him that I get the whole "I can do that" attitude (hence I've done plastering, layed a tiled floor, tiled walls, made ramps (concrete ones) for a garage, done plumming, wiring, repaired tv's, videos, etc). I just kind of assume I must be able to do it, (although my plastering, well, let's say it fits with rest of the victorian house's plaster really well).

But once you've decided that you can and are going to do it, it's just a case of ignoring those who don't help you. I don't tend to ask for advice from a lot of people anymore 'cos they just suggest that you should "get someone to do that". To be totally honest, at the moment I can't *afford* to, and having noticed some things I'm, shall we say, not entirely happy about, about my car's restoration I'm very much of the opinion that perhaps in future I should do it.

(Although my metal working skills are 'somewhat rusty' - the new dashboard is not *quite* as neat as I envisaged at this point. Still, some filing and filling and it'll be fine I'm sure

This has turned into a bit of a ramble really, hasn't it. Anyway, what I was *intending* to say is that try joining your local MMOC branch, they'll probably be chock full of people who can give you helpful advice - I mean, one of them helped Nikki change her fuel pump in the middle of the National Meet. I must get and go to mine (local MMOC, not my fuel pump, I've met that...).

[rayofleamington]

You're winding me up aren't you.

well - maybe a bit of devils advocate

If you've had an inclination to play with cars but never had your own to practise on then getting a Minor is close to perfect.
Another good (bad) way to get started is to take your car to a garage for repairs and get ripped off for bodge repairs. Very quickly you will be keen to spend money on tools for DIY, rather than be overcharged for the work of some clueless trainee mechanic.....

[lowedb]

I was lucky in that my Dad used to do a lot of work on cars, and I watched and learned rather than being taught. I don't think he was over impressed though when my offer to 'service' the lawnmower involved learning by having the cylinder head off.

Today I still find that I learn more by watching or asking questions, or just plain trying, and that includes in my job.

As for the boy / girl thing I'm sure we all have good and bad examples. When younger, my brother didn't want to know anything technical and refused to get involved. Now he's a BT technician and gets involved with a lot of problem solving. I work with a few female automotive engineers and they vary as much as the male ones. One girl I work with has worked for a turbocharger manufacturer and knows all about cars, but when discussing servicing her car she says 'that's what boyfriends are for'. However another female Engineer friend has been taking bikes, cars and anything she can get hold of to bits for years. She tells me that people think she asks too many questions, but I like people asking me.

So, don't be shy. Ask ask ask!