Whick brake upgrade?

[tysonn]

Looking for advice on upgrading the brakes on my '59.Its got a 1275 mg engine and gearbox with a bigger carb.I'm a bit confused as to which parts to look for.Read about marina/wolseley etc.I have a new servo but realise that will only make the brakes need less leg work not increase the efficiency.Price isnt the main consideration its more which set up will be easier to get hold of and/or easier to fit?Anyone with anything suitable for sale would be handy.
TIA
Mick

[bmcecosse]

If your 59 has the original 7" front drums - then an upgrade to the later 8" drums is WELL worthwhile with very low cost (£50 secondhand?) and easy fitting. The even larger (but hard to find) 9" Wolseley 1500 front drums are much better again - reasonable cost (£100 secondhand?)and again very easy fitting - and no servo required. Moving on to disc brakes - more difficult to fit and master cylinder must be modified - often a servo is required and a remote fluid reservoir. Budget ~ £1000 if buying new/garage fitting. Secondhand discs could be very fraught......some have loose hub bearing problems and seized up calipers are common. But of course - you may be lucky and pick up a perfectly good set through the forum...just make sure they are 4" PCD to take Minor wheels......and be sure to ask why they are for sale!

[tysonn]

Ta Roy.Ok off to place a "wanted" ad.

[Biggles1957]

Totally agree with Roy! Wolseley brakes are absolutely brill - if you can find some. Straightforward swap and they also stop your bottom trunnion dropping off......

[les]

Never given this larger drums option much thought before even though it often crops up. What exactly does it involve regarding brake cylinders springs etc, or perhaps easier to ask what parts need replacing from the standard set-up, please.

[bmcecosse]

Complete assemblies from the W1500.. If the cylinders are shot - they can be replaced with Minor cylinders (small mods to backplate required) - which may make the front brakes rather over sensitive - although I found this was mainly down to brake shoe material - and a change to a different set solved the front/rear balance nicely. Ideally - both front and rear sets from the W1500 makes for top brakes on a much lighter Minor!

[les]

Thanks Roy, do you mean the front brakes may be over sensitive if Minor cylinders are used?

[tysonn]

I think hes saying thats all that are now available.

[les]

Oh ok.

[bmcecosse]

They were with my second set - but that was with new shoes. I changed to the old shoes (which had nothing wrong with them) - and it was fine. Wolseley cylinders are available - but not low cost. However - seals are readily available for the W cylinders at low cost - so you can overhaul what you have.

[C6Dave]

Wolseley front drums, Minor rears and my 1098 convertible stops no problem without a servo

MOT Tester was very impressed with them

[bmcecosse]

Of course it does! I've never manged to fade mine out either - despite various attempts!

[youngcamper]

surely sensitive brakes are good ? people these days seem to complain about having to push the pedal too hard

[C6Dave]

The Minors brakes were designed for the car and if maintained in good condition are very effective.

When people complain about Classic Car brakes, it's a lot to do with driving style and the way people are taught these days.

When the Minor was originally made, most cars had similar systems and you were taught to be in control of the car at all times so, if approaching a junction or traffic lights say whilst slowing down, you change the gearbox down, so the selected gear matches the cars speed and your using the engine for braking.

The brakes in effect were an emergency tool/final stopping measure

These days people seem to be taught to brake heavily to each and every obstacle and only change down at the last moment so if your brakes fail, well your likely to have a very nasty outcome.....

Overly sensitive brakes can be dangerous in some situations. Drive up fast to a junction or bend and apply the brakes hard and there is a diesel spill on the road you haven't seen........

It's a sure way to go off-roading or to hit something very solid.

Before spending money unnecessarily on upgrading brakes, take a look at how your driving the car and see if you are really in control of it.

[kennatt]

Yes, but very old school,brake shoes are a lot cheaper and easier to replace than gearbox and clutch parts,the advanced driving method is,brake ,gear,manuver. ie you brake to the speed you need for the hazard,then select the gear you need to negotiate the hazard then drive through it.And 7 inch minor brakes were OK back in the 50ies,but unfortunately there are ten times more cars and road users now,the better the brakes are the safer the car no matter how old it is.I once had an austin 8 with rod brakes,took half a mile to stop,wouldn't even think about using one on the road now,

[LouiseM]

I once had an austin 8 with rod brakes,took half a mile to stop,wouldn't even think about using one on the road now,

I'll be driving one of those next weekend. It doesn't go very fast but as long as you stick to quietish routes and plan well ahead braking isn't a problem.

When people complain about Classic Car brakes, it's a lot to do with driving style and the way people are taught these days.

I think it's more to do with the difference between a vehicle's performance rather than driving style. Almost everyone is taught to drive in a 'modern' car so in comparison classic car brakes will seem to be less effective at stopping. After driving my Dad's Austin 8 the standard Minor brakes seem very good, but after driving my Fiat the Minor brakes seem not so good. Nothing to do with my driving style, it's a 'perception' thing as the brakes in all three vehicles function as they were designed to function. So the standard Minor brakes will probably seem not very good to a new owner who has never driven a classic car before, purely because it's a completely different type of car than they are used to driving. A brake upgrade is sensible though if, like the OP here, you have an upgraded engine.

the better the brakes are the safer the car no matter how old it is.

I don't think its brakes that make cars safer, it's the person behind the wheel. If I drive safely, and plan well ahead so that I can stop in the distance that I can see to be clear, the chances of being involved in an accident solely as a result of not being able to stop in time would remain the same regardless of whether I was driving the Austin, Minor or Fiat.

[MarkyB]

As Roy is fond of saying the standard brakes will lock up the wheels at 20 mph so would have to be thinking about wider tyres.
That's in the dry, how about fitting ABS for the wet?
Otherwise just get into the spirit of driving a 50 year old car, read the road ahead and chill out!

[C6Dave]

I don't think its brakes that make cars safer, it's the person behind the wheel. If I drive safely, and plan well ahead so that I can stop in the distance that I can see to be clear, the chances of being involved in an accident solely as a result of not being able to stop in time would remain the same regardless of whether I was driving the Austin, Minor or Fiat.

Point perfectly made

BTW I go from a Citroen C6 with 340 mm front disc brakes/302 mm rear that can stop the 2.25 ton car very quickly indeed from any speed, but I still drive defensively (although far faster than I can in the Minor ) and always 'read' the road and traffic conditions ahead.

As MarkyB says "just get into the spirit of driving a 50+ year old car... and chill out" it's far less stressful

[tysonn]

I have a 1947 Riley RMA.Its a darn sight heavier than a Minor convertible and has rod operated rear brakes so I know all about making an appointment to pull up.The question was asked because the car having a Midget engine and bigger carb will be propelled at a less leisurely pace than the original brakes were designed to address.

[linearaudio]

Where did I leave that worm-can opener??
Having driv a few years on the "big W" brakes, my advice would be go for discs, no servo maybe. As pointed out by MarkyB, it starts coming down to tyre adhesion. In the dry with servo discs and wide tyres I am sure you can stop on a sixpence. In the wet the lowish weight of the Mog may not give sufficient traction through wide tyres, and easy-lock brakes may occur!
The reason I would (and will, soon) go to discs is that of predictability of lining material!! As Roy says, some brake shoe linings are OK, others are rubbish. May be something to do with the removal of asbestos from the product? In any case, being a daily driver, I can't cope with the roulette style choice of linings! As drums are only usually seen (if at all) on the rear of modern cars, not much attention is likely to be lavished on the choice and availability of relining materials by brake suppliers.
With discs, you are in with the "in-crowd", and can look at EBC, Mintex etc etc.for consistent material choice!
Also, they do not fade if the worst happens and by any chance all your road reading/mind reading doesn't work on the odd occasion when it is really needed
That, and the fact that discs are far less inclined to go out of round/out of balance than drums, and are self-adjusting....

But of course there is a HUGE,HUGE difficulty which ought to stop any but the bravest fitting discs to their Mog- that nasty little top hat seal in the master cylinder which has to be removed, an engineering feat similar in level to, err, replacing the master cylinder seals Think I can just about cope with it!!
Sooner or later, my 9" drums will be available for some lucky punter- any bids yet??