is this another problem for classics

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kennatt
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is this another problem for classics

Post by kennatt »

Ethanol in fuel 2013,The below taken from the scimitar owners forum,mainly discussing rubber petrol piping that aparently is damaged by ethanol.scimitars being fibreglass burn like a bonfire,if petrol gets sprayed onto the engine. Should we be worried :o :-?

The EU has issued directives to increase the uptake of renewable fuels throughout Europe as part of the campaign to slow climate change. The net outcome of these EU directives is the inclusion of bio-ethanol in petrol. At concentrations of less than 5% there was, and still is, no obligation for the petrol pumps to be labeled at point of sale. Permitted ethanol content in petrol is to rise from 5% to 10% in 2013 there will be a requirement to continue to offer fuels with a limit of 5% ethanol until 2013.
The report considered;
Fuel filter blockage , galvanic corrosion, enleanment, drivability, deposit formation and material compatibility.
It is widely accepted that vehicles ten years old and older will not be compatible with E10 blends, though of course there will be exceptions to this. There are approximately nine million petrol passenger cars and light duty petrol vehicles in the UK that are ten years old or older, this equates to about 38% of the total petrol vehicles. In addition to these vehicles there are thousands of relatively new first generation petrol direct injection vehicles in the UK, the last new vehicles probably being sold in 2007, that are not compatible with E10.
If E5 is phased out by 2013 it is expected that the resulting problems will include:
Increased vehicle maintenance (replacing leaking hoses, cleaning of blocked filters),
Reduced vehicle life (for example fuel tank beyond economic repair) and
Possible catastrophic failure (fuel fires due to leaking hoses, piston seizure etc).
It should be emphasised that for some older vehicles, of small market value, the required modifications to make the vehicles compatible with E10 or repairs after damage by E10 will be such that the vehicle is beyond economic repair. Hence the effect of will fall disproportionately on the poorer members of society who run these older vehicles and cannot afford to purchase newer more expensive vehicles.
The final recommendations are;
Vehicles ten years old or older, carburetor vehicles (including powered two wheelers) and first generation direct injection spark ignition vehicles should not be fuelled on E10 unless the manufacturer can state the vehicles are compatible with E10.
The automotive industry should produce a comprehensive list of vehicles compatible with E10. While it is acknowledged that some lists do already exist if in doubt the vehicle operator should seek clarification from the vehicle manufacturer.
E5 should not be phased out in 2013, its widespread availability should continue for the foreseeable future.
Consideration should be given to maintaining a specification for E0 fuel for historic and vintage vehicles.

Fuel Types
E10, sometimes called gasohol, is a fuel mixture of 10% anhydrous ethanol and 90% gasoline.
E15 contains 15% ethanol and 85% gasoline. This is generally the highest ratio of ethanol to gasoline that is possible to use in vehicles recommended by auto manufacturers to run on E10 in the U.S.
HE15 contains 15% hydrous ethanol and 85% gasoline and has been introduced at public gas stations in Netherlands since 2008.
E20 contains 20% ethanol and 80% gasoline, while E25 contains 25% ethanol.
E70 contains 70% ethanol and 30% gasoline, while E75 contains 75% ethanol. These are the winter blends used in the United State.
E85 is a mixture of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, and is generally the highest ethanol fuel mixture found in the United States and several European countries.
ED95 designates a blend of 95% ethanol and 5% ignition improver and is used in modified diesel engines where high compression is used to ignite the fuel.
E100 is pure ethanol fuel. Straight hydrous ethanol as an automotive fuel has been widely used in Brazil since the late seventies for neat ethanol vehicles and more recently for flexible-fuel vehicles.

AFS Hoses
Our Bio100 / T2240 hose is designed for 100% ethanol resistance.Regards
Bob
HUE 1979 SE6a GTE
chickenjohn
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Re: is this another problem for classics

Post by chickenjohn »

Use super unleaded which does not contain ethanol. Other than thar, there are additives you can add (available from Frost etc) that neutralise the harmful acids in the ethanol.

Really, adding alcohol to fuel is crazy, why are they doing this?? The grain should be used for food and not fuel. There is no justificatiuon for this which is a far worse problem than the phasing out of 4- star.
Cheers John - all comments IMHO
- Come to this years Kent branches Hop rally! http://www.kenthop.co.uk
(check out the East Kent branch website http://www.ekmm.co.uk )
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MarkyB
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Re: is this another problem for classics

Post by MarkyB »

The grain should be used for food and not fuel
You can make alcohol from just about any organic substance that contains sugars.
You just wouldn't want to drink it :)

"Once you break something you will see how it was put together"
chickenjohn
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Re: is this another problem for classics

Post by chickenjohn »

You can, by fermentation, the problem is they are using grain to make bio ethanol and not waste. The entire process even produces more CO2 than just using petrol as it is. That is how mad it all is. Not that CO2 is even a problem in the first place!
C6Dave
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Re: is this another problem for classics

Post by C6Dave »

This is nothing new and has been well discussed on this site and other classic club sites in the past. The tests carried out have only been over a limited time period so definitive answers are not yet available.
Our other car is a 2009 Citroen C6 3.0 HDi a 'future classic' and far rarer than a Morris Minor!!

The 'moggie' has been replaced with another 'classic' a 1953 Citroen Traction Avant 11BL
bmcecosse
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Re: is this another problem for classics

Post by bmcecosse »

The more we can do to release the stranglehold of oil supplies from the Far East - the better for us all! Plenty of food in the world - in the Western World we all eat far too much (me included..). So carry on I say! But they should certainly be made to ensure it is 'non-corrosive'..........
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JOWETTJAVELIN
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Re: is this another problem for classics

Post by JOWETTJAVELIN »

As C6Dave says, nothing new here and too early to be of much alarm. Has anybody actually had anything fail yet due to this petrol in real conditions? Cleveland Discol was an alcohol blend back in the day. Seems most of the damage is done through storage - so drive the car more often (I drive mine daily because in 10 years' time perhaps fuel costs mean they really will be Sunday only drivers).

The politics of ethanol fuel is another matter... to 'save the climate' indeed... meanwhile most of the world is starving.

Hang on... what about the ice age, the volcanoes which killed off the dinosaurs and the drastic climate changes which occured before humans were even thought of? :-?

Some say we should never have come down from the trees; others say that even the trees were a mistake and we should never have left the oceans.
drivewasher
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Re: is this another problem for classics

Post by drivewasher »

Just google or youtube search for "the great global warming scandal" a documentry it was on tv about 4 years ago it's an eyopener!

autolycus
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Re: is this another problem for classics

Post by autolycus »

chickenjohn wrote:Use super unleaded which does not contain ethanol.
Sorry - not true. I questioned Shell on this one last October, and eventually got this reply:

European Union and UK Government legislation requires us to blend
ethanol, as a renewable energy source, into road fuel to a current
maximum of 5%. We do not produce fuel without ethanol on a regular
basis and certainly not in a way that enables us to direct customers
to outlets selling non-ethanol fuel.

If you require any further information or assistance do not hesitate
to contact our customer service centre at 08007318888.


I would be surprised if any of the other major suppliers were any different, but if anyone can be bothered to find their way through semi-automated customer service centres, they're welcome to prove me wrong.
chickenjohn wrote:Other than thar, there are additives you can add (available from Frost etc) that neutralise the harmful acids in the ethanol.
Ethanol doesn't contain acids, but can attract water which can lead to various problems. The additives may go some way to counteracting this, but why should fuel companies be allowed/compelled to sell an adulterated fuel that needs these expensive additives?
chickenjohn wrote:Really, adding alcohol to fuel is crazy, why are they doing this?? The grain should be used for food and not fuel. There is no justificatiuon for this which is a far worse problem than the phasing out of 4- star
Absolutely agree. But that's what our supine politicians have led us into by agreeing to give up most of their legislative power to that bunch of foreigners to whom most of us have no allegiance whatsoever.

I understand that the real problems begin with E10 and E15 - to the extent that in some parts of the world marine use of ethanol-containing fuels is banned on safety grounds. Heaven help those with tanks sealed with one of the earlier generation of slosh sealants - not, perhaps a problem with Moggies as relatively cheap new tanks are easy enough to get, but a big problem for many classics.

Kevin
chickenjohn
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Re: is this another problem for classics

Post by chickenjohn »

Ethanol used in petrol contains a certain amount of water. there is an azeotrope between ethanol and water therefore the water can never be completely removed by distillation and these traces of water seperate when mixed with hydrocarbons (petrol). This residual water is what contains the acids that attack alloy and aluminium parts.

And yes, one of the members of the East Kent branch has had an ethanol related problem- They bought a Minor back from Germany. It broke down on a trip and the cause was the float chamber was filled with a jelly like substance. This is due to corrosion of alloy parts from the acids contained within the wet ethanol.

The anhydrous ethanol used in petrol is not really anhydrous!

Oh, and Autocyclus, read the FBHVC information:-

http://fbhvc.co.uk/2012/06/05/newsletter-no-3-june-2012

"DISTRIBUTION OF FUEL IN THE UK

The way that fuel is distributed in the UK makes it very difficult to give an accurate and up to date picture in the newsletter about actual ethanol content in petrol at any time.

The DfT have suggested that the FBHVC be a clearing house for data from the fuel distributors so that members can have some idea of how much ethanol is in petrol in their local area. In general the premium fuel grades from all suppliers will have a lower ethanol content, and this will continue to be the case for the foreseeable future.

There are around 40 terminals distributing petrol in the UK and it should be remembered that there is not a direct link between the retail brand and the operator of the terminal so the information below does not mean that all Super retailed under Esso, Total, Conoco, Murco etc brands is ethanol free.

As at the end of April the situation was as follows:

Exxonmobil – operate 5 fuel distribution terminals, ethanol is not blended into Super Unleaded at any of these
Total – operate 4 distribution terminals (one jointly with Conoco), ethanol is not blended into Super at any of these
ConocoPhilips – operate 3 (further) terminals, 2 don’t supply Super, the third doesn’t blend ethanol into Super
Murco – operate 3 fuel distribution terminals, ethanol is not blended into Super Unleaded at any of these
Valero – operate 6 fuel distribution terminals, ethanol is not blended into Super Unleaded at any of these
Ineos – operate 2 fuel distribution terminals, 5% ethanol is blended into Super at these
The FBHVC intend to improve the frequency and accuracy of this information and will publish updates on the website."

So, most supplies of Super unleaded currently DO NOT contain ethanol, as I said.
Cheers John - all comments IMHO
- Come to this years Kent branches Hop rally! http://www.kenthop.co.uk
(check out the East Kent branch website http://www.ekmm.co.uk )
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chickenjohn
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Re: is this another problem for classics

Post by chickenjohn »

drivewasher wrote:Just google or youtube search for "the great global warming scandal" a documentry it was on tv about 4 years ago it's an eyopener!
Well said!!! A rare hour of truth on the TV amongst all the propaganda!
autolycus
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Re: is this another problem for classics

Post by autolycus »

chickenjohn wrote:Ethanol used in petrol contains a certain amount of water. there is an azeotrope between ethanol and water therefore the water can never be completely removed by distillation and these traces of water seperate when mixed with hydrocarbons (petrol). This residual water is what contains the acids that attack alloy and aluminium parts.
The azeotrope is less than 5% water, so the water content of the mixed fuel, even for E10, is less than 0.5%. Do know how much acid that contains, and what in the fuel degrades over time? It seems that the problem is worse with stored fuel than fuel which is constantly being replenished, so it's not just that the corrosion only occurs slowly.
chickenjohn wrote:Oh, and Autocyclus, read the FBHVC information:-

http://fbhvc.co.uk/2012/06/05/newsletter-no-3-june-2012
Thanks for that link - FBHVC stuff is usually worth reading.
chickenjohn wrote: (quoting the FBHVC website)
"There are around 40 terminals distributing petrol in the UK and it should be remembered that there is not a direct link between the retail brand and the operator of the terminal so the information below does not mean that all Super retailed under Esso, Total, Conoco, Murco etc brands is ethanol free."
chickenjohn wrote:So, most supplies of Super unleaded currently DO NOT contain ethanol, as I said.
Difficult to know whether it's "most" or "some", without knowing the detailed output figures from each terminal, and the ones not mentioned on that list, like Shell, but at present totally irrelevant given the above sentence about the lack of correlation between retail brand and source. It's a bit like Russian Roulette: even knowing the probability doesn't help you to know whether to bother saying cheerio.

The sooner we're out of the EC the better: at least it might then be worth kicking up a stink with the people who want out vote.

Kevin
(or Autolycus, the "snapper-up of unconsidered trifles", not Autocyclus, an early Roman motorcyclist)
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