Barn find 1953 convertible

[minormadness]

Hi all,

Just to introduce myself and my new acquisition - which with some help I have identified as a 1953 series MM with an A-series conversion which took place in 1964. It is quite a late MM with chassis number FCA11/174278, and came with 2 sidevalve engines (one of which is a marine engine) and all the other bits needed to convert back to a sidevalve.

The structure is solid although the floors are a bit of a patchwork. I bought it from a friend who has owned it since 1980, but it was last on the road in 1997.[frame][/frame][frame][/frame]

Thanks to Dean, David and Louise for the initial assistance with more pictures here http://www.mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44338

Rob

[mike.perry]

Had a busy weekend so I have only just got around to your car. As you have probably gathered it is a Series MM built at the end of 1952 but not registered until Feb 1953, probably because punters were hanging on for the Series 2 and MM sales were dropping off.
It was not on my Register so that is truly another barn find
It was quite a common practice to stick an A Series engine into a Series MM, especially the later cars with the bulkhead crossmember curved to take the A Series engine. Hopefully the practise is dying out as people appreciate the Series MM.
A convertible would be worth more with the original running gear especially as you have all the original parts and if you are missing anything I am sure that it could be tracked down.
You say that one of your engines is a marine engine, any chance of some photos as I have a Vedette marine engine and there is no way that it would fit in a car, unless you mean an ex military generator engine which can be adapted
Could you please PM me your name and contact details so that I can add them to the Register

[minormadness]

Mike,

The Marine engine was supposedly rebuilt (and painted a kind of MOD green colour) so it has already had the head swapped for the original, and the water pump also - I believe the marine engines used sea water as a coolant. So the assumption is that the main block is "non-marinised" and interchangeable with the original MM engine, it certainly seems to be compatible.

I only have one of the engines at the moment, I will post some photos as soon as I have both.

Rob

[tomas.geoghegan]

i know the car would be worth a bit more with the original side valve engine.
But they were Very Slow,
and With motoring today i would laeve the later Engine in the car.
Good Luck!
Tom

[mike.perry]

Provided thet the engine is in good condition and is not knackered, and time is taken to find the best setting for the distributor then performance can be quite acceptable. Last week I undertook a 12 hour day return journey from Reading to Colwyn Bay and the car was cruising at around 60mph on the motorways and dual carriageways.

[moggylowlight]

What would I have if I had to choose?
An Austin powered A-series MM or a silent running proper Morris MM sidevalve engine..no contest.

[mike.perry]

[frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame]
Vedette MK2 engine

[minormadness]

Mike,

This the the marine engine block fitted with the standard head and ancillaries. The other engine is the original block, fitted with the marine ancillaries which I don't have yet. The marine engine was supposed to have been a factory reconditioned unit, hence the green paint I presume

Comments welcome![frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame]

I will post pictures of the other engine next week.

[mike.perry]

That engine is an ex military tank generator engine. Note the flywheel is drilled and tapped for a power take off and I think that you will find it has an 80T ring gear instead of 102T so the starter will not engage, there was originally a blanking plate over the starter mounting. The oil drain plug is on the side of the sump, not centrally underneath and you will find that there is no well inside for the correct type oil pump, the tank engine had a different design pump for static running and oil was piped from an external supply. The large bolt on the side of the block near the float chamber taps into the main oil gallery and is also a feature of the generator engine. You will also find that the crankshaft has no oil scroll at the back and uses a proper oil seal.
Compare your engine to my photos of the Vedette marine engine
For more info see http://seriesmm.mmoc.org.uk/ex military generator engines

[minormadness]

Hmmm, I read the info and I think I'll just rebuild the ordinary sidevalve components. You've been a great help, many thanks. I could have wasted a lot of time finding this stuff out the hard way!
Rob

[mike.perry]

It basically comes down to which engine block is in better condition and rebuilding that one. I am running a generator engine in my car at the moment

[minormadness]

I've done a bit more investigation and the block seems really good, the bores are in great condition an the pistons look relatively new with a +10thou marking.[frame][/frame]

The aluminium water jacket casting is badly corroded so I will need to replace that, but the rest looks fine including the water pump with a grease nipple?! There is some corrosion and flaking in the waterways but nothing serious. The aluminium water elbow will also need replacing.

So my plan is to reassemble the engine using this block but with the sump etc from the other engine. I have a couple of questions:
Which colour would be right for the original engine number 172440? I've seen blue or grey listed, but the remnants of the other engine I have are dark green painted over some gold (goldseal?) residue. Is there a recognised paint code I can use?
Also, with theses generator engines is the hole in the end of the crank the same size as the standard engines or do I need to have a spigot bush specially made?

Some investigations into the car structure have revealed a worse-than-expected level of corrosion so that will take some time to put right. Example photo below.[frame][/frame]
Thanks
Rob

[mike.perry]

.001 = 1 thou, standard bore piston. The military always re sleeved their engines back to standard bore, ths simplified stock control as they only had to keep one size piston and rings.
If you are rebuilding the generator engine follow my instructions so that you have the correct parts with the engine. If you have the engine out you may wish to consider fitting unleaded valves guides and seat inserts.
The military engines would have been painted in standard light blue army engine paint, just take a look under the bonnet of any army vehicle.

[minormadness]

Good spot Mike, 1 thou not 10 thou. Thanks for the insights behind this.

Any ideas on the spigot bush in the end of the crank? I would hope to use the one in the other engine or a standard replacement, but can only do that if the hole in the end of the crank in the military engine is the same as the standard engine.

On the colour, I want to rebuild it so it looks right for the car, so my question was about which colour is right for the car engine. On most of the engine bay pictures I have seen it looks grey, so that would be my instinct, but just wanted to check that it is right for a late '52 built vehicle. And is there a paint code for this grey?

Thanks

Rob

[mike.perry]

I don't remember having any problems with the spiggot bush. Find a drill the same size as the gearbox 1st motion shaft and try it in the end of the crankshaft. Remember if you use the military block then you must use the same crankshaft. You may have to improvise the rear bearing seal or you could try "Gaskets for Classics" to see if they can supply a seal. I would recommend them for good quality gaskets, there are some poor quality gaskets on the market.
There are no records of engine paint colours recorded at Gaydon as the engines were supplied to the factory ready build. Generally the earlier engines were a blue/grey colour and I think that the later engines were green.

[RobThomas]

Mike. I have a strange Q for you. Would that boat engine sump fit and work on a, say, Series E engine or later? I have a pre-war Minor without engine and I need something like that boat sump that has mounting points on it.
If so, do you know where I can find a sump???

[mike.perry]

The Morris 8 sump is very similar to the Series MM and fits the 8 box which is also very similar to MM box.
The Vedette sump is designed to fit the marine epicyclic box which is completely different. I think that the same box was used on all Vedette engines including A Series and the blocks and flywheel housings were designed to fit. Have a look at photos in the Vedette topic. I am on the lookout for a Vedette gearbox.
I think that there was an 8 engine on ebay recently

[RobThomas]

Hmmm. I've got lots of M8 and MM engines and boxes but that Vedette sump shape would make it a lot easier to mount my engine. This 1932 chassis has the steering running right where a right hand M8 engine mount needs to go.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.[frame][/frame]

[minormadness]

I found a number stamped on the front of the block between the water pump and the end of the water jacket (this is my Generator engine block). It is COV/48/68 I. Any idea what it means?

Rob

[colin addison]

Rob
I am rebuilding the side valve engine out of my 1950 MM Tourer. I have very recently been asking Mike about engine colours and apparently nobody knows what the engine should be. So I am going to take Ray Newell's book along to the paint place and ask them to make to the colour shown on page 30. I rather like this darkish grey/blue.
Mine had also been sitting in a barn, for around 20 years, but had both leaked water into the bores such that they are very rusty, and also scraped a gudgeon pin both sides of one bore. The outcome of this is that I am having it sleeved back to original size (it was +.060") with new pistons, if you need these contact Bryan Gostling, much cheaper than suppliers because they are all ex WD spares. He also has all the shell bearings for the crank, amongst various other goodies.
Be prepared for a fright on the cost!!
best of luck
Colin