Morris Minor Owners Club

Hi,

First post on here for a couple of years I think - I remember asking in the distant past about minor stuff when considering one as a run-about, only to end up buying something completely different (1981 plastic pig was the final choice IIRC, although I'm not sure if I should admit to that).

A little bit of background... I've owned and run classic vehicles of various sorts for the best part of 10 years (I bought my first when I was about 15), most of them Landrovers. My current daily drive is a 1972 SIIA LWB with a modern (well modernish, it's 20 years old) 200tdi diesel, but very much standard looks. Current project is a 1958 Series 1 with a 2.0 diesel (yes, all of 52hp for a 2 ton vehicle - and you thought a 803cc moggie was slow) which is a bare chassis at the moment.

When the 1958 gets kicked through an MOT next spring (all being well, and if MOT's still exist for it by then), I've decided I want a change from rebuilding Landrovers (the 1958 will be something like my 8th rebuild), and I fancy a Minor.

Said Minor would be intended to become my daily driver, as the fuel costs of doing 15,000 odd miles a year in a Landrover at 30mpg on a good day are getting a little painful, and the wear and tear on the Landrover is taking up too much of my life (the 200tdi delivers a bit too much power for the drivetrain, and I can now rebuild gearboxs blindfold - unfortunately there isn't an easy fix that doesn't involve spending loads of cash, or seriously cutting the vehicle about).

So, and now it probably gets controversial, really I want a diesel minor. I run the Landrover on veg oil at around £1 a litre, and with a petrol minor only really good (judging by what I've read on these boards) for about 40mpg, there is little to be gained by switching the Diesel Landrover for a petrol minor. I also really don't do petrol engines, I hate the sort of grief one gets with dodgy condensers, weird misfires and of course the inevitable elecy shock when you try and figure out what's going on.

So, if diesel it is, I'm probably going to be fairly pioneering. Searching the forums for info on diesel minors seems to get me a few threads about the van with the Perkins Prima, some speculation about other stuff (someone thinking of a corsa 1.5td) and that's about it.

In engine terms, I don't want huge amounts of power - the 1972 Landrover would, at the height of it's powers, beat almost anything off the lights, top 120mph, and frighten the living daylights out of me and anyone else in the vicinity with ease - I ended up turning the fueling back down partly to increase the transmission lifespan, but mainly to stop it costing me my driving licence if I got nicked playing with it. I've done the whole power thing once, and I don't really see the need to go there again.
At the same time I do a lot of long motorway runs, and with the motorway speed limit potentially being raised to 80mph, the ability to cruse that fast would be nice - but no great need to get up there quickly, or go any faster than that.

Another key engine aspect is it needs to be capable of running on cooking oil - it takes a third off the fuel bill. In practice, that means the engine used has to have a Bosch VE injection pump, or a close relative.

Oh, and whatever it is better be cheap, I don't mind working on stuff, but I resent paying through the nose for bits of car from the car breakers.

So, looking at the engines that might fulfil this brief, the best bet looks like the Pug 1527 cc TUD5 Diesel (56 hp, 86 lb·ft)
They are easy enough to get hold of (found in lots of small late 90s pugs, Citroen AX, a few Nissan Micras), are fairly physically compact, and sound like they produce a sensible power output for the task in hand.

I'm aware that it's a FWD configured engine, and that it almost certainly doesn't fit to any known gearbox that will fit in a Minor. If it can be physically got into the underbonnet space, and the bonnet closed on it, I'm sure the rest is resolvable with a bit(probably lots) of machining and fabrication.

What I don't know is all that much about minor drivetrains.

So, question time...

What standard gearboxes are there out there, what are their ratios, and roughly how much power and torque can be reliably stuffed through them?
What ratio standard rear diffs/axles are out there, and again roughly how much power and torque will they take?
What size tyres are normally fitted (as then I can work out the road speeds in each gear).

I'd much rather stay with standard minor bits than go for bits from other vehicles, but not if that means changing gearboxes every weekend, or if it means that speeds beyond 60mph are impossible to reach because it requires running the engine at 5000rpm (this thing will be plying the motorways of this green and pleasant land enough that I'd like to be able to make progress when needed).

I'm fairly open-minded about what version of minor to attach this lot too, I'd like a van but am almost certainly too tight fisted(there may be a little of a theme coming through this posting) to pay for one (and I wouldn't want to do this to a "nice" one either), the only one I'm not at all keen on is a traveller (I don't really do woodwork), so I imagine I'll probably end up with a saloon.

Other thoughts, and constructive criticism welcomed - my intention is to do my homework over this winter with a view to starting to collect together the bits, followed by buying the project motor once the workshop is finally clear of 1958 Landrover at some point not quite defined in the future (but hopefully well before we get into summer).

hi I don't know anywhere enough to comment but it did cross my mind that the people who "hot rod "moggies might have done something similar to your ideas,that may be worth a search

hope this helps

Theres a guy on here very competently fitting a 1.7 astra diesel, and I believe there are a few others on that side fitting diesels as we speak, as well as a build on the green tdi van. http://morrisminorowners.co.uk/about223 ... ght=diesel
WIth regards to gearboxes, the main options are: the ford type 9, dead common, most widely used for 5speed conversions, can cope with up to around 200bhp (not sure on torque) this box has the separate bellhousing and many conversion ones are available for many different engines. The MT75 was the "upgrade" for the type 9 but has an integrated bell housing I think so could be a fair bit more awkward. There are also some toyota boxes out there, and some use the dolomite with od.
The standard minor axle isn't the strongest, and anything about about 80bhp (or diesel levels or torque) you will need to up-rate the half-shafts. Diffs available go from 3.7 (quite rare/expensive) all the way upto about 4.55 or 4.8
The alternative is the ford escort (MK1 or 2) axle, its only slightly wider than the standard minor one (1-2") and can happily cope with well over the bhp and torque your talking about. It also has a huge range of diff ratios from something around 3.2 to at least 4.11. Minor wheels vary between 145/155's standard, to 165's or 175's for wider van rims or alloys. Ford wheels cna go as wide or narrow as you like! MInor wheels are 14" but you can fit 16" under a minor.

I would be very interested if you did manage to fit the 1.5 Peugeot/Citroen diesel, as it seems like an almost ideal candidate for an engine conversion. The only one I've seen so far was transversely mounted and FWD, in that 1951 saloon the guy then tried to sell for £22k .

Standard gearing with a 1098 minor back axle (4.22 diff) is about 16mph per 1000rpm, so your 80mph would be at 5000rpm. Fitting a 3.7 diff would bring that down to about 4500, which is still too high if you don't want to go deaf (then again, if you're used to a series Land Rover with a 200tdi in it then you probably already are ).

Therefore the Escort axle that Alex mentions is probably a better bet, although they're not cheap.

It would be interesting to find out the overall gearing of the 1.5D 106/Saxo, and to see if they themselves are capable of cruising at 80mph whilst keeping the engine revs to a reasonable level. 56bhp and 86lbs/ft isn't a vast amount, and I'd worry that in order to get the revs down to say 3000-3500, you may end up over-gearing it and suffering from very flat acceleration.

If your going to run it on 'cooking oil' avoid anything with a turbo and go for a straight 4 pot diesel engine

Later generation PSA (Peugeot/Citroen) diesels have to many complex systems on to run on that kind of fuel (EGR valves and Lambada Sensors will be especially problematic.)

The TUD5 was also used in the BL Metro (93 - 97) so if you can find one of those..............

Have a look at this:

http://mog.myfreeforum.org/turbo_diesel ... t1484.html

Really nice looking conversion using an XUD 1.9 TD engine, which is a fantastic engine to begin with (unlike Ford 1.8 diesels amongst others), is reasonably economical (especially in something as small as a Minor), would go like the clappers, and, if fitted with a Bosch (not Siemens) injector pump, will run on cooking oil reliably with or without a turbo.

Good luck!

I'm surprised you are running a TDi engine on veg oil? I thought that was a big NO NO!! And where do you get veg oil for £1/litre?? Always seems a good deal dearer than that wherever I look . I would love a small diesel on veg oil - but as you already realise - the gear ratios are going to hobble the car to low speed, and i wonder if the Minor gearbox would handle diesel torque for more than 5 minutes anyway - and the axle would likely snap the half shafts. So it does look like you need a stronger box and rear axle... In fact the cheapest way to run a Minor is on a standard engine/box/axle but on LPG fuel. None of the diesel torque problems - and the cheapest cost per mile by far.

Interesting stuff folks.

Via the power of Google, the original gearing in a 106 is:

1st 3.636:1
2nd 1.81:1
3rd 1.267:1
4th 1.026:1
5th 0.767:1

Final drive: 3.765

How does that compare with a) standard Minor and b)Minor with a type 9?

I think LPG is out - several reasons, but not least where on earth would you put the tank?

The Minor box doesn't have a 5th speed - that's the important difference. There is a 3.7 final drive for the Minor axle. LPG tank either goes where the petrol tank was - or where the spare wheel was ! They sell toroidal tanks specifically for that purpose.

The problem with that is it leaves the question of where to put the petrol tank, or spare wheel.

LPG only isn't viable, I doubt it will be able to get a range of over 200 miles on whatever tank gets squashed in there, one of the regular runs I do is to my parents 125 miles away in west Wales, and with no LPG local to them it could become a confounded nuisance.

No spare wheel, or having to keep it on the back seat doesn't appeal much, I had a mate who lost a tyre on a motorway with no spare, and the subsequent police recovery didn't come cheap...

I'm aware the std morris box has only four speeds - I'm used to that (I don't think I've owned a car with a 5 speed box in my life).
I'm also not too concerned about noise levels, I can't believe it would be worse than the Landrover - I'm more concerned about engine lifespan and loss of MPG if it ends up being run at silly RPM's to hold motorway speeds.

estwdjhn wrote:Interesting stuff folks.

Via the power of Google, the original gearing in a 106 is:

1st 3.636:1
2nd 1.81:1
3rd 1.267:1
4th 1.026:1
5th 0.767:1

Final drive: 3.765

How does that compare with a) standard Minor and b)Minor with a type 9?

I think LPG is out - several reasons, but not least where on earth would you put the tank?

Not sure about exact figures for minor, although likely available in the manuals, 4th is basically 1:1

With a Ford type 9, 4th is still 1:1ish and 5th is 0.82:1, so not as long as that 106.

I only pointed out that LPG would be easier, and lowest running cost, I'm sure there will be LPG sales on your route. There's plenty room for a tank, and the spare wheel can be carried in the bonnet - in the empty space of the 'snout' . But I do like the diesel idea - but for decent economy I wouldn't want bigger than 1.4 engine.
You haven't come back on my Q re running a TDi on veg oil - or where you source veg oil for £1/litre???

I'm sure there will be LPG sales on your route.

Yes, one place, and one that sells it for not much less than petrol, and is only open about half the time. Oh the joys of rural areas...

Veg oil usually comes from the local cash and carry in 10l drums for about £1 a litre (I have an account and collect several hundred quids worth at once, every couple of months), although right now my local Tesco have 5l drums of rapeseed oil in for £5, so I've been using that. (Rapeseed is generally considered the best oil for running engines on, but at the cash and carry it's an extra 10p a litre).

Despite all the doom and gloom that's bandied about on the net, I've only ever had one bad mishap with veg oil fueled 200tdi landrover engines - I had one that blew a head gasket between no3 pot and the pushrod tube, and blew a load of veg oil into the sump while idling on three cylinders during a week or so while I tried to work out what was wrong with it (it ran fine once the revs picked up, wasn't losing oil or water, but idled like a bag of nails). Said veg oil polymerised in the sump, which more or less totals the engine (it's a chain reaction - once you've got a bit of it in there, the only cure is to strip the engine down to a bare block and steam clean everything, and even then you may have bearing damage if you didn't shut the engine down quickly enough). I've been running my Landrover on 100% veg for 3/4 of the year (when temperatures get around 0deg C you get problems with it freezing and blocking the fuel lines and filters) for about 3 years now...

If fitting a TUD engine, the TUD5 is the one to go for - the older 1.4 version is known for having lots of nasty mechanical problems, while the later 1.5 seems to have a pretty good reputation - and a little extra grunt will do no harm - capacity costs almost no MPG, unless it's used by the heavy right booted types...

Thanks for that! The problems with veg oil in direct injection engines are generally put down to injectors/pumps etc - I don't think you can blame the head gasket on the veg oil. And yes -I used to run the only rapeseed oil plant in Scotland !

LPG would be one way to get the fuel cost down, but the OP would still have to invest a considerable amount in a 1275 A-Series, 5 speed box, conversion kit, and 3.9 or 3.7 diff in order to be able to cruise at 80mph with any degree of comfort. A 3.7 diff with 0.82 ratio top gear would result in roughly 22.5mph/1000rpm, so 80mph at about 3600rpm (if my calculations are correct). This lot would not come cheap, even if you managed to find everything needed secondhand. If you're regularly doing these sort of speeds then you may feel the need for a brake upgrade, further adding to the cost.

I think the main problem with fitting the TUD5 (assuming it'll go in the engine bay) is going to be mating the engine to a suitable gearbox. If you can make a bellhousing yourself then you should be OK, providing you can find a suitable clutch. Otherwise, it might end up being extremely expensive to get one made up for you as a one-off item.

If it is strong enough, I occurs to me that I may know where to find a 3.2:1 diff and rear axle, with the correct PCD for a mini(is that the same as a minor?) . It wouldn't even cost me anything, as I already own a fairly dead vehicle with such an axle attached...

The snag is I'm not sure if the axle is wide enough - what is the normal track of a minor axle?

I'll see if anyone can guess what the axle is from before revealing exactly what I'm thinking of...

With a 3.2:1 diff, that presumably gives more manageable crusing rpm - with a type 9, it's going to be about 26mph/1000rpm, giving 3000rpm at 80mph. I'd be concerned that was a bit too high geared - doubtless it will be lovely on the flat, but rather less so climbing even modest hills.
Sticking with a std gearbox and a 3.2:1 diff would yield 21.3mph/10000 rpm, so 3750rpm at 80mph, and 3300 at 70mph - I think that's probably fairly optimal, given how the original car was geared. This looks a sensible and economic (in terms of outlay on parts) route, provided that the gearbox will withstand the torque, and 1st hasn't ended up far too tall to manage hill starts... thoughts on those two aspects would be appreciated.

For comparison, the Landrover is geared so 80mph is 3200rpm, which feels very relaxed, but then it does have a very torquey turbo diesel bolted in it...

I'm not to thrown by the prospect of having to make up a bellhousing to mate the TUD5 and whatever gearbox is chosen - I've got access to machining tackle, can weld, and have the use of a plasma cutter... with that little lot, what could possibly go wrong?

Some early Vauxhalls had 4" PCD wheels - but a 3.2 final drive is pretty low. It would have to be a fairly powerful engine to pull that along!