Morris Minor Owners Club

I have the bull motif duplex chain kit, which I'm in the process of fitting. However, the gears don't line up - the cam gear sticks out about 1 - 1.5mm further than the crank gear. Both are the first item onto their respective shaft, no washers/shims or anything else - just like how the original gears were.

In my workshop manual it says that if you're changing parts you need to check alignment and reshim if necessary, and it suggests that when you remove the crank gear there should be shims behind it. There weren't any on mine, and the original gears seemed to line up properly with no shims. Does shims behind the crank gear sound like the right solution for fixing the alignment - I can't think of anything else I could do? Where would I be able to source suitable shims?

Also, looking at the original lock tab washer that I removed there's nothing to stop the washer itself rotating - it has a keyway cutout, but there is no key where the washer goes (between the nose of the crank and the face of the nut). I am wondering if this is the correct lock tab washer, or if I'm missing something in how it is held in position?

The bull motif kit seems to come with a new lock tab washer for the cam nut, but not for the crank nut. But there is a dish shaped that I've no idea where it goes - it's too small to fit over either the nose of the crank or cam shafts. Any ideas?

Shims won't take up 1 to 1.5 mm! They are only designed to line up the sprockets by a very few thou. Are you sure the cam sprocket is going fully home - not jamming on the key which may have come slightly up out of it's keyway? Lets see some pics of the lock washers - old and new !

pretty sure the cam gear is fully on - I've done up the nut as tight as I can without the cam turning, so I think that would have pushed the sprocket fully home? Is there an easy way to lock the camshaft whilst I torque up the nut on the end of it??

I'll get some photo's of the washers tomorrow.

The 'half moon' key slips out of the slot very easily - and can jam the sprocket. I really do think this will be the problem. Have you already removed the two bolts in the main bearing cap - and countersunk the front plate to take the c/s head screws ? The heads of these screws must be absolutely flush down with the plate. Secure them with Loctite!

if i recall, the cam lock washer has what looks like a keyway on it, but it's actually a tongue that has been pushed out. that tongue locates into the keyway of the cam sprocket to stop the washer turning.

the dish one for the crank won't fit over the crank, you put the sprocket on, then the front cover, then the front pulley. the front pulley secures the sprocket. the washer you've got then goes onto the thread of the starter dog bolt. you tighten that up as tight as you can, then you whack the washer inwards into the pulley (there should be two detents on that face) with a screwdriver and a hammer. that stops the washer turning. then with the same screwdriver you bend another bit of that washer upwards to meet a face of the hex on the starter dog bolt.

with regards the sprockets, have you got them on the right way around?

Thanks Chris for the info on the dished washer - that bit makes sense now! I think it had the incorrect washer on there previously.

I am quite sure that both keys are square, and the sprockets are fully home. I've countersunk the bolts, not quite fully flush, but as you can see in the photo below, there is plenty of clearance.

Left to right we have:
the old cam washer
the new one (identical)
the existing oil thrower (presumably I can reuse this)
the old crank nut locking washer (which I can't see how it did any actual locking)
and the new dished washer which replaces the above.

[frame][/frame][frame][/frame]
I think the above picture shows the extent of the offset between the two sprockets, which in both cases are the first items that I've put onto the shaft (the same configuration that I removed). Is that correct, or should there be any washers on first?

could it be that the crank sprocket is on the wrong way around?

The longest side of the crank sprocket is facing the block - if I turned it round it would go on even further and probably foul the front plate. Both sprockets have their timing marks facing outwards, which I assume means they're on the right way. But I don't think either of them will fit the other way around anyway.

Is there much end float on the crank? The cam sprocket looks quite far out from the front plate - does it go on further if you try it without the little key in place ?

Will the camshaft push back; the triangular plate behind the cam sprocket has a bearing face that the camshaft end is in contact with and it is often worn allowing end float.

I've been looking at it again tonight, and I am confident that the cam sprocket is fully home. I'd guess there's about 0.5mm clearance between the back face of the sprocket and the triangular piece mentioned. Although at one point they were touching, but I think that might be due to a bit of end float in the camshaft. There's certainly no way that the cam sprocket is going to move over far enough to line up with the crank sprocket. Here are some more pictures.

You can just make out the .5mm gap between cam sprocket and the plate:
[frame][/frame]

From another angle:[frame][/frame]

The triangular plate behind:[frame][/frame]

I dummy assembled it all to see if I was missing something (like the crank sprocket having a bit of float (but it doesn't the nut locks it all against the shoulder of the crank. I turned the engine around a couple of times to let any end float settle and this is how it looks:[frame][/frame]

So the sprockets are quite a way out of alignment, I can't beleive that it's acceptable to be this far out. The only thing that I can see would make a difference is a washer/shim behind the crank pulley.

I put the original (simplex) sprockets back on to see what their alignment was like - and they are just as far out! So the only 2 things I can think of are that either I've lost a washer/spacer of some kind (I certainly didn't see one when I disassembled, and I've had a good look around), or that the original sprockets had been run with this offset for some time!

Any suggestions on what I should do here? Are there specific spacers/washer/shims for this job, if so where might I be able to get some??

Hello Mike,

put a dollop of grease on the inside face of the camshaft sprocket, fit the sprocket and tighten the nut. Dis assemble and look at the faces, the grease should have been totally squeezed out if the sprocket is fully home. It sounds as if something fundemental is wrong here so try and establish exactly what is what?
If the camwheel is fully home you need to look at the crank.

Alec

It may be a Friday afternoon engine.
I'd go with the washer/shim behind the crank pulley idea.

Hello Marky,

unless Mike can verify that the camshaft pulley is fully home, shimming the crankshaft pulley will not be a long term solution.
It's essential to identify the error rather than just compensating for it?

Alec

You can see the witness marks on the camshaft retaining plate where the pulley is touching it.

I think this plate is flat, from memory, but it might be worth taking off to see if there is a 5mm deep ring out of the other side.

Hello Marky,

that has to be from the old pulley?

Alec

The plate is flat, it looks like something is/has been running on the outer face. Sorry already mentioned!

Yes, it looks like the old sprocket was running against the trianglular plate, and from what les and alec are saying, that is correct. Although I would have thought that there should be a small gap when the camshaft settles in position, it seems like an odd idea that the face of the cam sprocket should be the reference point that holds the shaft in line.

As I said previously, there looks to be a small (maybe 0.5mm) gap between the plate and the new sprocket, but I'll have a look and confirm that is correct. The new cam sprocket slides on easily, so I don't think it's fouling on the key or anything, and it feels as though the very back face of the sprocket is hitting the shoulder of the cam where it sits in the front of the block.

So rather than use a shim you could take 5mm off that plate.
I bet that engine used to eat timing chains even faster than normal, probably a service item on that one.

Maybe we are looking at things differently here, I'm thinking the triangular plate is not what the sprocket should pull up to, that plate is only to stop the camshaft from moving forward( the inner face has a soft bearing surface like rod bearings)