Morris Minor Owners Club

having discovered that my welding technique is exactly none existent using MIG and the arc welding, which is an annoyance to say the least.
so, i have decided to try my hand at gas welding as it dosent involve electricity and (from what i can tell) relies more on actual sight and thus i would think easier.

so would i be right in saying is probably easier than the electricity based welding methods?

and what does one need? (except the obvious gas, guages, torches, mask)

Hi

I learnt to weld with gas welding oxy acetelene .. It is quite easy to learn but there are also some obvious big risks working with an explosive gas mix! A modern essential on the kit is the fitting of flashback arresters.

The equipment is quite expensive and you then have the cylinder rental and refilling costs....

In some ways its easier than electric methods as its not so fussy about clean metal but it does usually make the workpiece hotter and therefore more liable to distortion. You will need a good fire extinguisher also when the inevitable happens!

The kit is very usefull for heating, cutting and brazing which is a bonus.

There a whole section in the Morris Minor workshop manual on gas welding and it gives some good guidance.

If you can I should try and use someone elses or a rented set for a while to see how you get on before committing to a purchase.

Taupe

Fire is quite a major risk as you are putting a lot of heat in for quite a while.
Underseal, carpet, plastic and Waxoyl all burn quite readily.
Carpet especially can smoulder away while you are off having a cup of tea.

Apart from that, and the cost, gas welding is lovely. Rusty nuts cannot resist and come undone with a satisfying screech after a bit of treatment with it.

never thought about renting one, would certainly make much more sense to see how it goes before shelling out on the full kit.

It is expensive - it is very good, and very satisfying to use! But as others have suggested - FIRE is the big risk. Don't do it in a timber garage. DO chain up the cylinders so they can't fall - and DO (again already suggested) fit flashback arrestors.

i have decided to try my hand at gas welding as it dosent involve electricity and (from what i can tell) relies more on actual sight and thus i would think easier.

so would i be right in saying is probably easier than the electricity based welding methods?

No one seems to be asking the obvious here which is - why is it you feel you can't get on with MIG or Arc welding?

Yes Yes - Gas welding is lovely lovely but still requires a good degree of manual dexterity and a fair bit of practice before one gets any good at it.

Yes the ultraviolet is not so strong with a raw flame and so you get away with using lightly tinted glass that allows you to see more but remember that you'll not only be moving your arm / torch at the right angle and speed / choose the right nozzle size, but will also be feeding the filler wire in at the right speed and angle with the other arm. As for doing both while upside down under a rusty vehicle - no thank you.

MIG is the no brainer of the welding world and much easier to produce a good weld with less dexterity than Gas or Arc. You just hold the gun and pull the trigger. Every welding method requires a good deal of practice, on clean steel, with some knowledge of what the weld pool should be doing and why before you can expect to get a good result.

Are you sure you just don't need more practice with perhaps some guidance as to where you are going wrong. Or ( as a former Fabricator / Blacksmith ) am I speaking out of turn?

Welding is not easy for everyone to learn.It would be best if you could
find someone to show you,or take some classes.Fore mig you need a
decent welder,or it will not be decent welds and harder to do.Gas welding
will warp the panels so you have to deal with that too. TIG is best but too
expensive.Any type of welding you need to get some instruction.
What you dont know about can hurt you.
kenny(certified aircraft welder).

Chris,

I agree with the previous two posts.

I would suggest you get a better MIG welder and some lessons! Correctly set up MIG needs a relatively small amount of instruction and practice to make excellent welds. BUT - whatever system you use you need instruction and practice. If you cannot use stick or MIG you will not be able to weld effectively with gas! Also the welding is a small part of the repair process. Well prepared surfaces, accurately made and correctly fitted repair sections, together with good access and working conditions....well I could go on....

I apologise in advance if I got it wrong, but your initial post does read like you are looking for a quick fix to overcome a lack of patience and experience...

I agree with the above posts- get some instruction!

ideally, enrol on a restoration course where they will teach you Mig and Gas welding.

I personally love gas welding, it is a very nice technique for visible bodywork, however, don't make the mistake if thinking it is easier than Mig- it is not! Gas welding requires a higher degree of skill and accuracy in both panel prep and technique than does mig. And I agree above, I would not use it under a car- Mig is by far the best choice here, Gas is best for repairing panels such as wings.

To gas weld, both pieces of steel need to be very accurately butted up and must fit near perfectly, yes, filler wire can be used to fill small gaps but this is trickier to use than Mig welding where the filler wire is fed automatically. You therefore need to be much more accurate in your preparation that you do with Mig, you also need to be skilled in the hammer and dolly as these will be needed to dress down the gas weld afterwards and planish out any distortion.

Mig is an easier technique to learn and should be mastered first (along with panel beating and fabricating skills) before you go on to gas. Plus, add the insurance issues of using gas at home (your house insurance may be invalid in the event of an accident) and it is a no brainer- start with Mig welding which is inherently easier to pick up as a beginner.

Basically- go on a restoration course!!! Learn the skills!!!

Hello all,

the opinions on MIG welding here are rather at odds with the pictures I see posted on various forums of 'repairs', including some that were done by garages at the owners cost.
I personally think that gas is easier in awkward situations as you can react far quicker than a MIG with it's pre set parameters.

Chicken John, I think gas is more tolerant of poor fit than MIG on thin sheet; the plus point of a MIG set is it's relatively low cost.

Alec

I learnt gas welding and Arc at college, then I got a MIG set.
I really struggled for 18 years with my first MIG set, and couldn't get anything as neat as other people, although I could get it really strong. The set would regularly jam up using 0.6mm wire so I ended up using 0.8mm - it jammed much less but 0.8 gives less finesse.

Eventually I needed a new welder and looking at the MIG forums I could see hundreds of people with the same problems using certain kit and not others. I bought a Clarke 130 MIG second hand and now I'm having to unlearn all of my bad techniques as this set can weld properly / neatly / smoothly. The only issue I have with this set is that it has 4 power settings. If it had 6 settings the step up/down inbetween settings would be much more user friendly.

Alec wrote:Hello all,

the opinions on MIG welding here are rather at odds with the pictures I see posted on various forums of 'repairs', including some that were done by garages at the owners cost.
I personally think that gas is easier in awkward situations as you can react far quicker than a MIG with it's pre set parameters.

Chicken John, I think gas is more tolerant of poor fit than MIG on thin sheet; the plus point of a MIG set is it's relatively low cost.

Alec

I do both gas and Mig welding on thin sheet metal (0.8-1mm) and I can assure you that if you do not get a good fit between the two pieces of steel butted up, then the Oxyacetylene flame will just burn a hole, even the use of filler wire cannot bridge the gaps that mig can. Mig welding, as it has an automatic filler wire as part of the weld process is more tolerant of gaps.

As for underneath the car, I can't really see anyone wanting to struggle with gas when Mig welding is the ideal and much easier technique for welding in underbody sections. Gas is great for repairing outer panels and for coachbuilding style of restoration, but not good for car chassis/sill repairs. You cannot easily plug weld with gas as you can for instance with Mig to replicate spot welding where it would have originally been used on the car.

As for "reacting quickly", why would you need to do that????? A floor pan or a sill piece and the part of car you are going to weld it to will be of uniform gauge so just set the Mig for that.

As for the pictures on the internet- that is due to lack of skill rather than deficiency inherent in any technique. It would be a very BIG mistake to recommend gas welding to a welding novice for underbody welding on a Minor or any other classic car.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE gas welding and much prefer it to mig as an enjoyable welding technique, but only for removable panels, not the underside of the car.

Really the best advice anyone could give is GO ON A RESTORATION COURSE!

rayofleamington wrote:I learnt gas welding and Arc at college, then I got a MIG set.
I really struggled for 18 years with my first MIG set, and couldn't get anything as neat as other people, although I could get it really strong. The set would regularly jam up using 0.6mm wire so I ended up using 0.8mm - it jammed much less but 0.8 gives less finesse.

Eventually I needed a new welder and looking at the MIG forums I could see hundreds of people with the same problems using certain kit and not others. I bought a Clarke 130 MIG second hand and now I'm having to unlearn all of my bad techniques as this set can weld properly / neatly / smoothly. The only issue I have with this set is that it has 4 power settings. If it had 6 settings the step up/down inbetween settings would be much more user friendly.

You should get the Clarke 150 TE that has a bit more power for thicker metal AND it has six power settings (although they overlap somewhat and don't go in the order you expect) and on the lower settings you can weld thin stuff such as repro wing steel gauge.

Hello Chickenjohn,

we will have to remain on either side of this opinion.
My point is you can instantly vary the rate of using filler, if needed, and the heat input by torch control, both of which are fixed with a MIG. I agree that a good fit is good practice and should be aimed for, but it is by no means essential with gas, even on 20 gauge sheet. Also I don't find welding under a car difficult with gas, especially as you don't need to wear such a cumbersome helmet as with an arc process.
I didn't advocate gas for a beginner although it has far greater versatility, and is a more useful bit of single welding equipment if a lot of varied tasks are to be carried out. However, I've always had a stick set for heavier work and now a small TIG set but I don't use that on my cars.

Alec

To gas weld, both pieces of steel need to be very accurately butted up and must fit near perfectly

I would say this applies more to MIG than to gas welding, with gas you can apply heat and make percussive adjustments as you go along.

A bit of instruction has to be the best option, there are a least 3 variables just adjusting the MIG welder, getting them right without someone knowledgeable looking over your shoulder is highly unlikely, and then there is the actual operation of the torch, book learning will only get you so far.

I served my time as a coachbuilder(gave up and went on a different tack after a few years.Back then there was only gas or arc welders, kept my hand in over the last 40 years on mgb minis and minors.Forgotten how many. I still have numerous track marks on both forearms where blobs of weld have gone down my sleeve from welding with gas upside down. Migs were a revalation ,the guy who introduced me to migs,one of the best coach builders I have ever seen,said once you have mastered the mig the only time you will use gas is to remove rusty nuts.Completly correct,with a mig,very little distortion,less fire risk,and no problems with registration of gas bottles.I got rid of my gas years ago and replaced it with one of those high output butane blowlamps,which you can actually braze with.Gas for me is a non starter,but everyone to thier own whatever you are happy with works best.But like everything it just take a bit of advice and practice practice practice.

Hello Kennat,

anoather view and again one I don't recognise? Blobs of weld from welding upside down, far too much heat if that is happening?
Blow torches for brazing or soldering, again much too coarse for many fine jobes?
I agree with going for equipment you are happy with but I think you are over dismissive of gas. Incidentally, I remember seeing a panel beater at Astom Martin butt welding an aluminium wing with gas and no filler rod, very impressive.

Alec

Alec wrote:Hello Chickenjohn,

we will have to remain on either side of this opinion.
My point is you can instantly vary the rate of using filler, if needed, and the heat input by torch control, both of which are fixed with a MIG. I agree that a good fit is good practice and should be aimed for, but it is by no means essential with gas, even on 20 gauge sheet. Also I don't find welding under a car difficult with gas, especially as you don't need to wear such a cumbersome helmet as with an arc process.
I didn't advocate gas for a beginner although it has far greater versatility, and is a more useful bit of single welding equipment if a lot of varied tasks are to be carried out. However, I've always had a stick set for heavier work and now a small TIG set but I don't use that on my cars.

Alec

You have hit the nail on the head with your comment about "not for a beginner".
Yes, I agree, it is possible for the experienced gas welder to weld under the car, but why would they want to when Mig is easier??, as for the welding helmet, just jack the car and support it a bit higher! The helmet will fit under the car then. However, the original question was posed by a self confessed novice, and Mig is the easier technique to learn for the new welder.

BTW, I'm not knocking gas, if it were not for the expense and insurance issues, I would definitely have a gas set at home (I use one at college) as I actually prefer the technique over Mig for welding in repair sections to panel work, but for underbody chassis/floors sills etc mig is better and easier.

Alec wrote:Hello Kennat,

anoather view and again one I don't recognise? Blobs of weld from welding upside down, far too much heat if that is happening?
Blow torches for brazing or soldering, again much too coarse for many fine jobes?
I agree with going for equipment you are happy with but I think you are over dismissive of gas. Incidentally, I remember seeing a panel beater at Astom Martin butt welding an aluminium wing with gas and no filler rod, very impressive.

Alec

I've butt- welded steel panel work with no filler rod using gas. Ali is harder, I've recently watched Brian the instructor at college butt weld aluminium panels together on a fellow students Austin 7- yes, very impressive. The issue is to do this you need to be VERY accurate, the results are great, but much fettling is needed to get the two pieces to fit PERFECTLY to gas butt weld them together. You also need to be able to access both sides of the weld to planish out any distortion using hammer and appropriately shaped dolly. Something that is not possible when working underneath the car.