Morris Minor Owners Club

I finished restoring Daisy this summer in the UK and shipped her out to my other home in Hong Kong.

By law, in Hong Kong seat belts must be fitted ( in the back, but not in the front for pre-64 cars ).

So I fitted static seat belts that are E4 marked, then took Daisy for her pre-registration MOT.

The Hong Kong MOT centre failed the test for two reasons :

(1) They require a letter from the manufacturer of the car to certify that the seat belt anchorage points in the back of the car meet BS AU48:1965 / BS AU48a. I told them I cant provide such a letter, so they then asked for a letter from someobody that is the UK's equivalent of the Hong Kong Institute of Engineers ( I suppose it would be the Institue of mechanical Engineers ) stating that the seat belt anchorage points that the seat belts are attached to comply with BS AU48:1965 / BS AU48a and the works have been done to a satisfactory standard. The letter requires photographs of the anchor points and must show the way in which the seat belts are anchored. Not only that, but the letter must also be acompanied by a photocopy of the UK Institute of Mechanical Engineers qualification certificate !! He said that if I cant provide that, then I would have to take the car and have all the anchorage points tested by an approved lab in Hong Kong by a Hong Kong registered professional engineer. To do that would require setting up all the necessary tests for the BS AU48:1965 / BS AU48a. Having that done will cost me about 5,000 pounds and take about a month. I cant spend 5 grand on having some Hong Kong engineer muck with and probably damage the car too.

(2) They frowned when they saw the disc brake conversion with the servo as well. They failed it because it was not original equipment when the car was new and said that they needed proof that the disc brake conversion would be safe because it may exert different stresses on the vehicles structure. I could not believe this !! So they asked again for a letter from the manufacturer of the car to state that the disc brakes conversion is an acceptable upgrade and that the work has been done to a satisfactory standard. Again, I told them this was not possible, so they then asked for the same as (1) above..... a letter from a professional mechanical engineer......

So feeling well annoyed at the lack of common sence, I walked into the Main Hong Kong Government offices this morning and had a meeting with the head of Vehicle compliance at the Transport Department....a nice chap, but he lives in a very small box that he cannot step out of.

Basically, they are making me jump through two very difficult hoops. The second hoop I can solve at the worst by completely removing the disc brake conversion and reverting to drums all round. I dont want to do that because the brakes are so much better with the discs and it would be mad to go back to drums again.

Can anyone help ? Is anyone a qualified mechanical engineer registered with the British Institute of Mechanical Engineers ( or similar ) ? I could supply the photos of all the installation points for the seat belts, plus detailed pics of the disc brake conversion and draft up the required letter and email through.......basically it would be a case of signing the letter, emailing back with a photocopy of the professional qualification certificate......

If I cant overcome this, I will not be able to register Daisy and she will never see the roads of Hong Kong.

Pic of Daisy below !!

HELP..... [frame][/frame]
Charles White

Charles,
I dont know if it will help but the workshop manual section R34 onwards shows the seatbelt installation points and discribes how they should be installed. This being the official British Leyland (Austin-Morris Limited) manual should be enough for them to accept the installation. If you haven't got this manual PM me amd I'm sure I can assist. I have the securicor belts and kept the box as it does say Morris Minor on it. How do they react to Morris Minors without seatbelts?
The brake issue is another problem and I've no idea on how to get around that. If you have the Ford based kit, the fitting instructions clearly state that it is an upgrade for the morris minor but it not an official document as far as bureaucrats are concerned. That I could send you too if it would be of any help. And I used to think that the Germans are sticky....
Hope you get it sorted.
Regards
Declan

Would RMB under the counter help?

The manual only shows the front seat belt mounting points.

Can you not just remove the rear belts???

Hello Declan

I managed to find a download link and have had a look at the seatbelt section however the instructions appear to only apply to the front seats. Strangely enough the Hong Kong Government are not bothered if I have front seatbelts or not as the car is pre 1964, but a policy that came into force in 2005 states that all cars must have rear seat belts. The seat belts themselves are fine, its just the mounting positions must be approved. If there were such a thing as a technical installation manual by British Leyland or a person that is registered with the institute of mechanical engineers or similar then that may help.

Having spoke with the people that supplied the seat belts, they say if the current day force was placed on a Morris to test to 1.73kN which is 1,730 kg's on each of the rear seat belts at the same time for a timespan of one second ( which the Hong Kong Government are saying I will have to have tested in Hong Kong if I cant get UK approval first ), then the car will be completely crushed to bits, rendering it scrap.

So unless I can find an official document by BL or Morris or find an engineer that will put his name to the job that I have done, im in real trouble.

Oh dear....its not looking too good !!

Thanks
Charles

taupe wrote:The manual only shows the front seat belt mounting points.

Can you not just remove the rear belts???

Cant.....the law in Hong Kong requires all cars registered ( not manufactured ) after 2005 to have rear seat belts.

katy wrote:Would RMB under the counter help?

Hong Kong may be a part of China, but its not China ( if you see what i mean ) Over the border and its a totally different story !!

Surely if you remove the rear seats - you won't need rear belts ? I can see no other way round the mess - no-one here will be able to convince them it's 'safe' and as you say - the car probably won't withstand the test! And I would simply convert back to drums - nothing wrong with them anyway! Is this a 'once off' test - or is it repeated annually ? I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from with that!

It might be worth contacting the Classic Car Club Hong Kong for advice as they may have come across this problem before and might be able to help: http://www.theccchk.com/

Charles,
It might be the easiest thing to do and revert back to drums at least until it's registered. Try tracking other Moggy owners in HK and find out how they got out of this mess. I doubt if you will find any official document on rear seatbelts.
Regards
Declan
Oh-didn't see that Louise-good idea

Where are you or your wife working?
If either place employs engineers they might be willing to help out, the bureaucrats are just wanting to cover their bottoms and tick boxes.

Charles, are you a member of the MMOC? If so I suggest you contact Ray Newall, the secretary, for help and advice.

Hope this helps

MarkyB wrote:Where are you or your wife working?
If either place employs engineers they might be willing to help out, the bureaucrats are just wanting to cover their bottoms and tick boxes.

Yes, thats exactly what they are doing. I have an idea and think it may work........

Fitting 9" drums will give you improved stopping power compared to the original units and are much less likely to be spotted as a modification.

Regarding fitting rear belts post 2005, in the western world it is extremely rare to make a rule based on registration date to apply to a car that was originally registered 50 years ago! The usual get-out-of-jail-free is to exempt a classic car based on manufacture date.
As a qualified mechanical engineer, I really doubt you'll get someone to certify your seat belt achorages to the latest legislation. To do that properly could require a full CAE body model and a top end FEA package... The issue is not just how well the mountings are done (a good spreader plate will do that), but rather the strength of the vehicle structure where they are mounted.

As for China - I was told (maybe completely wrongly) that the current rules pretty much stop the import of old cars - so I'm not sure that registering over the border would help - however with mainstream culture there being rather different, you may just need to pay the right amount of 'fee'.

I've been wondering when we'd get these kind of questions from China or HK - so please do give feedback on how you get on!

No matter what you do in the way of 'mounts' - they willnot /cannot ever comply with any BS spec on an old car like that. As above - remove the rear seats. Simples!!

rayofleamington wrote:Fitting 9" drums will give you improved stopping power compared to the original units and are much less likely to be spotted as a modification.

Regarding fitting rear belts post 2005, in the western world it is extremely rare to make a rule based on registration date to apply to a car that was originally registered 50 years ago! The usual get-out-of-jail-free is to exempt a classic car based on manufacture date.
As a qualified mechanical engineer, I really doubt you'll get someone to certify your seat belt achorages to the latest legislation. To do that properly could require a full CAE body model and a top end FEA package... The issue is not just how well the mountings are done (a good spreader plate will do that), but rather the strength of the vehicle structure where they are mounted.

As for China - I was told (maybe completely wrongly) that the current rules pretty much stop the import of old cars - so I'm not sure that registering over the border would help - however with mainstream culture there being rather different, you may just need to pay the right amount of 'fee'.

I've been wondering when we'd get these kind of questions from China or HK - so please do give feedback on how you get on!

Hello Ray. Your comments are very sensible. I will go through them one by one :

(1) 9" drums would be a great idea, and yes they would never recognise that as a modification. I will receive an email from the head of the vehicle approval section of the Hong Kong transport department on Monday. The chap told me last Friday that it is permissable to modify the brakes providing I get consent from their department first. He said he had concerns of the possibility that some of the parts may have been past recalls from the manufacturers that used those parts in their production cars. Hes a smart cookie, and he knows his stuff, but with respect, hes not realistic. The rules state that a letter from the car manufacturer must be supplied stating that the modification is acceptable. I cant get that, but ESM will provide a letter verifying that they have supplied thousands of these kits in the past and there is no history of problems associated with fitting such kits. I suspect the Government's email on Monday will request a further letter asking for confirmation that there have never been any recalls from the car companies that have used these components in the past. If thats it, then I am sure it will be fine. If not, then I will be ordering a complete new front end brake system to change back to drums. A big job as the servo will have to go and all the pipework will need changing back to how it originally would have been. My retest is Thursday, so if I do have to change back to drums, I will need the parts in Hong Kong by Wednesday morning so I can spend the day fitting it !! I really hope I dont have to change back to drums.

(2) Rear Seat Belt Mountings. I completely agree with your sentiments. I think I have a way of getting around this, but there is no guarantee it will work and I cant discuss it on this forum !! That said, I can say that I know its possible for any car produced after 1965 to pass the Seat Belt Mountings requirements because that is when the BS AU48 standard was introduced. Im sure anyone thinking this through will understand what im getting at.......

I have been told that another option I have is to remove the rear seat ( in its entirety ) including the rear seat belts. The Government will then approve he car for first registration but it will only be approved as a 2 seater car ( i.e. front seats ). If I go down that road as a last resort, I will not be allowed to carry any passengers on the rear seats and the rear seats will not be permitted to be fitted. If I get stopped by the police then I would be committing a criminal offence under Hong Kong law and could go to prison. I will have to do it this way if I cant solve the problem any other way...

I was told by the seat belts manufacturer in the UK that to get an engineers report to certify the rear seat belt anchorages to the BS AU48 standard then the car would require a crash test or a belt test with a dummy to the tune of 1.7 tonnes per rear passenger....we all know what the result would be......an expensive pile of imported steel scrap and a very angry me !!!

(3) Hong Kong is apart of China, but it tules itself and has its own laws which are the remnants of the British Basic Law from the handover in 1997. As far as Government departments go in Hong Kong, you cant bung them a few quid to solve a problem...now if it was Mainland China...I would by now have already had dinner with the local Government officer, taken him to a suitable girly club, padded his back pocket with RMB and got my approval certificate !!! In almost all cases, I would still rather be under the Hong Kong system because although Hong Kong beurocracy is worse than that in the UK, HK is a safer place and you can see why !!

(4) Ive been out trying to get a local workshop to weld a large washer with a 23mm hole in the middle to the top of the petrol tank filler tube to comply with the 23.6mm regulation but nobody wants to do it. So I bought a large piece of acrylic plastic about 20mm thick. I was going to cut it myslef to fil, then silicone it in and drill a 23mm hole in the middle. When searching for my hole cutter I came across one of those plastic discs that are used inside bathroom cabinets to cover the back section of stop taps. The hole is 22mm diameter and tapered inwards. I cut the outside rim downwards and it fits perfectly into the head of the tank filler tube. What a result !!!! No screws, no glue, no silicone, no nothing !!! Only took 5 minutes and it looks like the proper job. Pic below..

(5) I tightened up a dripping pipe connector which now no longer leaks, so that will now pass, but I noticed a damp patch on the connector to the nearside rear brake cylinder which the MOT people missed. So ive taken the connector off to reveal that the copper washers are badly worn. They should never have been used on the rebuild......I need to see if I can buy some new copper washers tomorrow but not sure where to get them from around here. No sure if they will be readily available. Pic of the connector and washers below.

(6) Ive rigged up a hand brake brake light system today. Used a pull type switch screwed down to the top of the tunnel just behind the hand brake with a spring attached to the switch that connects throgh a tiny hole I drilled in the back of the hand braker lever. The made a neat cover from a biscuit tin lid, which screws down on top of two Ikea kitchen cabinet brackets that I had knocking around the store cupboard. They hold the cover away from the spring and switch. Ive attached a wire from the solid green wires terminal on the fuse block under the bonnet, fed the cable just below the dip switch on the floor, through a small hole and along the side of the tunnel which then connects to the switch. Then it continues along the side of the tunnel, up behind the vertical section of carpet and along the underside of the rear seat and into the rear quarter panel through to the boot.....dipping under the wooden floor and connecting to the purple green wire for the brake lights. With the carpet back in place you would never know that the mod had been done and it works a treat. So when the handbrake is pulled up with the ignition on, the brake lights come on. I think its ridiculous that the Government require this mod, but they say all single brake system cars ( i.e. old cars ) must have a brake light on the hand brake with the ignition on, just in case the foot brakes stop working and I have to emergency stop with the hand brake then everyone will know im stopping. Cant help but thinking this is way over the top but ive done it anyway to comply.

(7) The inspector said there is a small drip from the engine sump which must be stopped to prevent failure of the retest. Ive been under and had a good look but cant see where the drip is coming from. I suspect it is probably from an oil spill when I was changing the oil, so have wiped it clean and will have another look tomorrow. If there is another blob of oil there again, then I will take the sump off and give it a thorough inspection.

One way or another, Im going to get Daisy on the road. Its a pain in the DONT SWEAR OR YOU WILL BE BANNED dealing with all this, but I know it will be worth it in the end.


.


(3)[frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame][frame][/frame]

Does anyone know if there are metric sized copper washers that I use to replace the 7/16 Internal diameter and 3/8" internal diameter Copper Washers on the brake cylinder connectors ( see previous pic posted ) ? I strongly suspect the motor shops here in Hong Kong will only sell copper washers for metric applications and want to be sure of getting the job done before Thuersdays retest. There wont be time for anyone to post some out to me from the UK to arrive in time for the retest.

I just measured the copper washer that is supposed to be 7/16" and it is 8/16" internal diameter. Thats got to be wrong and could possibly explain why the copper washer is in such bad condition.....

Thx

swithland wrote:Does anyone know if there are metric sized copper washers that I use to replace the 7/16 Internal diameter and 3/8" internal diameter Copper Washers on the brake cylinder connectors ( see previous pic posted ) ? I strongly suspect the motor shops here in Hong Kong will only sell copper washers for metric applications and want to be sure of getting the job done before Thuersdays retest. There wont be time for anyone to post some out to me from the UK to arrive in time for the retest.

I just measured the copper washer that is supposed to be 7/16" and it is 8/16" internal diameter. Thats got to be wrong and could possibly explain why the copper washer is in such bad condition.....

Thx

Just done a google search. It turns out the larger copper washer which should have been 7/16" is actually a metric washer 13mm Internal Diameter. Thats why the washer wash screwed up and was starting to leak. Ive worked out I need a metric 10mm and metric 12mm internal diameter washers.....if I can get them.....

They are certainly putting you through the hoops! So now - if you sit stopped in a line of traffic with handbrake on - the brake lights at the back are shining in the eyes of the driver behind you....... That's a great idea - NOT!

bmcecosse wrote:They are certainly putting you through the hoops! So now - if you sit stopped in a line of traffic with handbrake on - the brake lights at the back are shining in the eyes of the driver behind you....... That's a great idea - NOT!

Thats right !! I find it totally ridiculous. Seems like there is no common sense in these government departments.