Sump problems

Post by **Cam** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:48 am

After taking my engine out at the weekend to solve some clutch issues, I have found that my engine seems to be leaking oil from the rear as well as the front. It is an A+ Ital engine (1275 bored to 1380).

I can't tell exactly where it is leaking from but I suspect it might be the front and rear sump seals.

When the engine was put together by MED racing engines they put a Minor sump on it, and it has always leaked. So the question is: If I put a proper Ital sump on it (and renew the gaskets properly), is this likely to cure the leak?

Does anyone know if there is a size difference between the sumps on the Minor 1098 and the Morris Ital 1275.

Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks folks!

Post by **Kevin** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:21 am

Cam could the rear leak be from the rear of the crank, if so there might be a need for one of the oil seal conversions from bath item OWN135.
Mike Whitby in Sidcup should be able to answer the sump question as he tends to keep both sizes for rebuilding so measuring a sump should be easy
020-8850-7983, mike.whitby1@btopenworld.com, and he is really helpful.

Post by **Cam** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:31 am

Kevin,

Yes, it could well be the rear oil seal, it's just that it leaks from the front too, and has since it was rebuilt (with brand new seals). I suspected the front and rear sump gaskets as MED are mini engine specialists and so might not be used to the conventional sump gaskets? If they have put them in wrong (or used the wrong type) then it might be causing the leak. The other point is: which set have they used? The Minor set (for the sump) or the Ital set (for the engine)?? I think there is a difference between the two as the gasket sets are advertised separately.

Thanks for Mike's details, I'll drop him an e-mail.

Cheers.

Post by **Kevin** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:12 pm

The Minor set (for the sump) or the Ital set (for the engine)?? I think there is a difference between the two as the gasket sets are advertised separately.

Well thats a complication you could do without, could it be worth contacting your local MG specialist to see if they show a gasket difference between the 1098cc and the 1275cc Midget engine`s, it could be worth a call.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:44 pm

The Minor sump gasket itself isn't fully robust - the cork pieces over the bearings will leak if they are too short, but if they are too long they cause the gasket to leak right next to it.
Some kits replace the cork with rubber which in theory allows better tolerances, although if they don't control it properly it will leak.
I tended to err on the side of using gasket goo as well as a new gasket set.
Leaking from the rear crank 'seal' should end up on the far side of the backplate by the flywheel not on the sump, as the backplate itself is sealed with a paper gasket to the rear journal on a Minor, so I guess it is the same on a 1275.

Post by **salty_monk** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:41 pm

and has since it was rebuilt (with brand new seals).

How much did you pay for that new engine again?? I wouldn' have been happy with that!! Take it back, I'm sure you're within your rights depending on length of time & how good they are at customer services...

Post by **Cam** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:54 pm

How much did you pay for that new engine again??

With all the head work as well: £1500 approx! (what was that about having more money than sense! - well I still do, but now I'm broke

)

I thought of taking it back, but being as the leak was only small and mildly annoying (not THAT bad), I could not be bothered taking the engine out again. I drove it around and thrashed the kna*kers off it for 2 years before needing to take the engine out for clutch issues. It's just that while it's out I might as well get it sorted.

I don't think they'll do it for free now after 2 1/2 years! I don't mind doing it, or paying for it, I just want it right.

Post by **Willie** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:49 pm

CAM... a general query, are you sure you do not have excessive
crankcase pressure??

Post by **les** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:33 pm

It might be an idea to fit an Ital sump on an Ital engine, with the correct seals, that way at least you can eliminate the sump, and more than likely cure the leak, as you will be sure of which type of seals to use!

Post by **Cam** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:43 am

Willie,

I made a mistake when I first fitted the engine. I connected the front engine breather canister to the breather on the rocker cover, so it was only breathing through the oil filler cap! A mistake now I know

This was at the time when the engine was new (freshly rebuilt) so the crank case pressure should have been quite high due to the piston blow-by. I removed this connecting pipe and fitted two k&n crankcase breather filters so that it's virtually venting to atmosphere now, but I fear that the damage might already have been done! It started leaking (if I can remember properly) not long after it was first run up and definately when the pipe was connected.

Les, yes I have an Ital sump (now) that I will fit anyway together with a new set of Payen seal as apparently they now have the plastic half round seals for the end seals. And as Mike Whitby (recommended by Kevin) said: The OB seal thing is good from the performance parts lot.

So I think I will give them a ring and get a set.

I hope it cures the leak, but what is worrying me is if the rear crank seal is knackered and I assemble everything with new sump seals only to find that it still leaks because of the crank seal!

Post by **rayofleamington** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:55 pm

to fit the OB rear crank seal you need to have the rear bearing cap machined flush with the block....
(ie - it's best to do that at engine rebuild phase, not with a fully built engine)
If the rear crank seal is gone you'll see a lot of oil on the gearbox side of the rear engine plate.

Post by **Cam** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:41 pm

Ray, there was a bit of oil present but not loads. I also did not drill a drain hole in the bell-housing so it really had nowhere to go and there was only a bit after 2 years of thrashing! The oil from the front and back of the sump is far more.

I rang the Minor centre in Bath for an Ital engine gasket set (with Payen seal with the plastic half round seals for the end seals) - like Mike Whitby suggested but apparently they don't do them. They suggested that I contact a Unipart dealer??

Any ideas on where I can get a set from? (mail order presumably)

Post by **Willie** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:31 pm

Well it doesn't appear to be your crankcase pressure then Cam,
good luck with the new seals and I would keep it down to 110
in the meantime!

Post by **Cam** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:39 pm

Thanks Willie! I would be most happy if it would do 10 at the moment let alone 110!!

Post by **Matt** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:00 pm

Kevin, according to MOSS the 1275 and 1098 seals are the same.....

Post by **Cam** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 8:26 pm

And according to the Birmingham Minor centre they are different! And the 1275 Midget/Sprite ones are different again from the 1275 Marina/Ital ones!

I managed to get an original BL set (new old stock) for the Marina/Ital today - with the rubber/plastic crank end seals as opposed to the cork ones.

Hopefully if I use the Ital seal kit with the Ital engine and the Ital sump then it stands a better chance of being oil tight!

Apparently there IS a difference in the sumps (possibly the thickness of the end seals), but when I have the sump off I will measure it and see.

Post by **salty_monk** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:33 pm

You could try the guys I generally use on 020 8302 7624.....

Don't know if hey do the part you're after though... Sorry!