Morris Minor Owners Club

Sorry to possibly go over old ground, but whilst under my Moggy today servicing my brakes I had some thoughts about lowering suspension which I wanted to get some thoughts on.

I am currently planning to lower the front and rear by 1.5" - the rear obviously with lowering blocks and the front by adjusting the suspension arm on the torsion bars by 1 spline. I know if you lower it too far the front suspension arms will foul the inner wings over bumps... but, could one cut some material out of the inner wing to allow for lowering by 2 splines (3")?

The places I identified as potential fouling points are the aperture in the inner wing where the damper arm passes through - could this be enlarged upwards? I don't see anything in the way to interfere with this. The other bit is where the engine bay floor meets the inner wing, could this 'corner' be cut out to avoid the lower sus arm fouling? It doesn't appear to be a point of major structural integrity... and one would only be removing a section about 2"x2" on both planes.

The rear obviously could be lowered with bigger blocks and longer u-bolts (which presumably one would have to fabricate from scratch - unless there is a "U-Bolts 'R' Us" shop anywhere?!) The bump stop of course would have little clearance here but I'm guessing trimming it down and re-profiling it might just about give an agreeable clearance.

Obviously there are potential issues with wheel/wing clearance, but at the rear one could widen the wings, and at the front I measured the distance between top of the tyre and the wing arch, and it's about 3", so I guess there, wouldn't be too much problem with steering - if it did foul one could raise the profile of the arch.

The only major potential problem I see (assuming the above counter measures would be feasible) is that the steering arm position might move somewhat so the TRE's might not mate with it properly and some bumpsteer might occur - which I have heard is a problem with some 'slammed' Beetles. Could this perhaps be countered by shimming out the eyebolt or something like that? Or maybe even bending the steering arm into a new shape?

Just thinking hypothetically at the moment, but would welcome any thoughts on this.

Cheers
George

well mine is lowed by 2 splines and then the lowest setting on the adjuser plates and i wish i never done it ha

i think it looks much better but, there is only a big enough gap for the bump stop, it then smahed them both off and i now need 2 new inner wing (they needed replacing anyway)

it hsnt hit the engine bay floor

but it has pushed the wheels out on the front about 1 inch and it threw the wheel allignment out so you would have to get that sorted

mine is on standard lever arms, but to have it this low you would need coil overs on front (i think)

also my quiet a bit of tread has been cut off my tyres due to rubbing on the wings front and rear (6 inch wide wheels though on the rear and standard 155s on the front)

steering is fine not had any problems and its been like that a year

so its up to you if you need to know ewt else pm me

Even with uprated marina torsion bars you still can't go too low.
you need a bigger spring rating i.e Coil overs,and that a'nt cheap.

As hotrod13 says, it does look cool.

The main problem at the front is the top of the kingpin/trunnion mashing the inner wing...........But go ahead - it's your car! I see hotrodder regrets it now........ At the rear - again - the springs will mash the rear chassis leg, and the bump stop (if any remains) will soon destroy the arch of the leg where it passes over the axle. Lowering like this is NOT clever - it will ruin the car, and won't help the handling. Colin Chapman liked long travel/well damped/supple suspension - for a very good reason.
Of course - you can go for the JLH coil spring front suspension modification - ask Jon for details. http://www.jlhmorrisminors.co.uk/store/ ... at&catId=2 But it still retains the kingpin - so the clearance from the inner wing is still going to be a problem - although as GAS says ^^^^ - the higher rated coil spring can help to limit the travel! You can make a very nice looking/mean Minor without excessive lowering!
You are right to worry about 'bump steer' - but bending the steering arm ??? Are you mad ???????????

Brill, cheers for the speedy comments chaps, most insightful. I definitely think it would look really good, I'm not sure 1.5" is quite enough! Though I have a spoiler on the front, which will only have 3" of ground clearance if I lowered it by 3" (the sump too)!
It's good to know that the steering isn't effected, I'm curious to know why one would need coil overs though, not dissagreeing at all Just wondering what the mechanical reason is... do the lever arm dampers not allow enough upward travel?

I love this one,but it has the full front clip from an MGB.[frame][/frame]

Sorry Roy, wrote my reply as you were writing yours...

Hmm, it does sound like a lot of potential mashing could happen! So, just to clarify.... the top of the kingpin/trunnion moves in an upward arc in toward the inner wing then? I'm guessing it pivots round the point where the damper arm is mounted on the damper, am I right?! So it's not the damper arm fouling the inner wing its the trunnion top hitting the inner wing. Could one cut a hole where it makes contact?!!

Are all the super lowered V8 minors one sees able to go that low as they run of completely different suspension (i.e. 5 link or something at the back and a donor subframe on the front)?

Probably sounds like it's not too wise to do, particularly if you can confirm bad experience with it hotrodder. Maybe I'll do it for just a day to give it a try and to take a few photos of my 'slammed' Minor! haha

Ah, just gone and done the same to you now too GAS, ha

Have you got a bigger version of that picture? I can only see a teeny thumbnail on my screen...

Sorry Gas, what do you mean by 'full front clip'?

Sorry about the size.This one uses the full front crossmember(wishbones,kingpins,dampersand steering rack) from an MGB.
It also has a thumping V8.[frame][/frame]

The steering WILL be affected - but good luck trying to bend the steering arm... Both areas (tie plates and inner wing) will be struck by overlowering - major mods necessary - and why ???? Have to say GAS - I think that Minor (with MGB subby) looks ghastly............

i know its not to everyones liking Roy,but it does it for me.

Track rod ends can be replaced with rose joints and bolted under the arm on the king pin.(after drilling out the taper)

G.

Yes - that would do it Graeme. Is your Trav fitted with the Rose joints ??

Yup, does it for me too Though I can never work out if I prefer the higher rear look, or having it lowered evenly front and rear. Thanks for clarifying about the MGB subframe - one day, one day I will put a V8 in a minor - and for the info on the rose joints.
To answer your question Roy, I just love the look of lowered cars (only the right sort of car though - a lowered Saxo or Clio looks bloody awful to me!) I think I'm one of those people that always see's a face when looking at the front of a car, and lowering it, spoilers, eyebrow peaks etc all make it look a bit meaner and more exciting! I am of course talking about this in a classic/hot rod/dragster/muscle car context - moderns with all this kit just looks naf IMO, other than maybe some seriously hardcore BMW or Merc that 'deserves' to have it (he says with a spoiler on a 1098 Minor ha)

Looks like it is universally inadvisable without major expense on the suspension, so 1.5" it is then, I'm sure that will do the trick, one day I could always get some bigger wheels to fill the arch a bit more if I think it needs it.

Cheers again all for the comments

Here is another one just before you go to bed [frame][/frame]

Haha
Awesome... and a roof chop, one of my other Minor fancies!

GAS wrote:
Track rod ends can be replaced with rose joints and bolted under the arm on the king pin.(after drilling out the taper)

G.

This is the worst thing you can do on the Minor front suspension.

Back in the early 90s when I was competing in my Minor with Minor front suspension (hillclimbs and sprints with slick tyres), I lowered my car so that the stationary ride height had the top of the top trunnion above where the bottom of the top bumpstop would be (I cut my bumpstops down) and ran coil over shocks with 400 lb springs in addition to the standard torsion bars. Anyway, I tried one of these 'anti bumpsteer' kits which relocates the steering joint below the steering arm and to be quite honest they are not only crap but dangerous. I set my suspension up using a bump steer gauge and to almost elimiate bumpsteer the joint ended up very close to the original position. Moving the joint below the steering arm made it much, much , much worse. The only benefit you get with the rose joint is that you can shim the height to what your car needs, but it really isn't far off where the standard one is, so isn't worth the hassle.

When you are mucking about with steering and suspension geometry, you need to know what you are doing!

Martin

Hmmm - strange really. The idea of course is to have the track rod pretty well horizontal when the car is sitting - and when lowered I would have thought there would be quite a bit of angle on it. But - gauges don't lie!

It is to do with the arcs travelled by all the supension arms relative to each other that are important, the increased angle of the suspension arms alter the location of the roll centre.

Yes of course -but usually (and the Minor suspension is very unusual!) people set the track rod arms horizontal - but this of course assume equal bump and droop from the static ride height. I guess you had v little 'bump' and probably lots of 'droop' (don't take that wrongly!) !

I had equal bump and droop, just properly sprung to run at that ride height and therfore reduced overall travel.

If I remember correctly at around the same time Carl Talbot (another hillclimb & sprint Minor driver) tried one of the anti bumpsteer kits and actually drove it like it, I seem to remember having a conversation with him at Colerne sprint regarding how crap those kits were.

If you don't believe me, and it seems like you don't Roy, draw it all out on a string computer, that his how I designed the replacement front suspension for my car and it has no bumpsteer at all! Of course with that suspension the steering arms are almost horizontal as you say, but then the roll centre on the current suspension is 5" above ground level where as the lowered Minor suspension had it 1.5" below ground level.

If any one going to try moving the steering joint below the steering arm please post when and where they will be trying it so I can make sure I am no where near!!!