Morris Minor Owners Club

In another post Russell of RTG services complains about basically being ripped off having bought an engine in good faith http://mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=33116. No one could deny Russell the right to post details of his bad experience and in the process warn the ordinary member of the pitfalls of buying parts. If it can happen to a professional like Russell it can more easily happen to you or me.
BUT herin lies a problem if I were to comment on a similar experience with any trade supplier my post would most likely be binned by the mods.
I feel that moderators should be getting together to rethink the level of moderation to allow a more free exchange of views between members and if necessary adjust the T&Cs to reflect this.
I would be pleased to hear Kevin's (chief mod) thoughts on the subject

billlobban wrote:In another post Russell of RTG services complains about basically being ripped off having bought an engine in good faith http://mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=33116. No one could deny Russell the right to post details of his bad experience and in the process warn the ordinary member of the pitfalls of buying parts. If it can happen to a professional like Russell it can more easily happen to you or me.
BUT herin lies a problem if I were to comment on a similar experience with any trade supplier my post would most likely be binned by the mods.
I feel that moderators should be getting together to rethink the level of moderation to allow a more free exchange of views between members and if necessary adjust the T&Cs to reflect this.
I would be pleased to hear Kevin's (chief mod) thoughts on the subject

Well in Russells case he had brought the engine from a private buyer and as you say he was right to advise people of the problem especially as he had tried everything to resolve the issue before posting.

Bill if you had purchased from a trader you would have recieved a guarantee of some sort and should have gone back to the trader, the biggest problem is that some complain about something they recieved from a trader that was faulty and just complain about it but dont even bother going back to the trader to let him know. Its by going back to the trader that often shows up the deffective parts as in the rotor arms and condensors a few years ago, if no one complained to the traders they would not necessarily be aware of the problem, which is also why some now have parts made to their specification.

You are also mistaken about the T & C's as regards the moderators we dont/didnt set/create them and we have to work within tighter guidelines than the board posters and cannot adjust them to suit.

If you have a genuine problem with a trader and have not been able to resolve it, you can then contact the committee to find a way forward, but there is nothing to stop you using a PM to inform somebody of your concerns about a traders.

The main board is not for moaning and groaning for the sake of it, I feel if it was as open as you would like we would then be inundated with things like,
I recently got a set of points from XYZ and the box was creased and they refused to change them what can I do.
Now I know this does seem an over the top ridiculous example and I couldnt agree more, but it actually an example that was raised to me as the local branch contact, and I have had some really silly ones over the years that you would find hard to believe.
I am sure the other branch contacts could come up with a list of the sublime to ridiculous complaints they have had over the years.
Sorry if I have gone on a bit that was not my intention.

Kevin wrote:The main board is not for moaning and groaning for the sake of it, I feel if it was as open as you would like we would then be inundated with things like,
I recently got a set of points from XYZ and the box was creased and they refused to change them what can I do.
Now I know this does seem an over the top ridiculous example and I couldnt agree more, but it actually an example that was raised to me as the local branch contact, and I have had some really silly ones over the years that you would find hard to believe.
I am sure the other branch contacts could come up with a list of the sublime to ridiculous complaints they have had over the years.
Sorry if I have gone on a bit that was not my intention.

Fair point Kevin and thanks for the prompt reply.

But my opinion remains that unless we are able to discuss problems in the open how are we to find out about them. Is someone going to pm every new member with a list of duff products and dodgy workmen? Or before we purchase parts or services do we have to post our intentions and hope that some kind soul will send a pm? Im sorry Russell to mention you again but in this case it proves the point that communication is essential. How many people would buy something from the same person after reading Russell's posts (and good on him for doing so)

Reporting your problem to an honest and reliable supplier is not a problem (not long ago I bought an imported servo which was a heap of pooh the supplier concerned replaced it without question and I have bought lots more from them since) Its the less than reliable ones we have to worry about. The ones that ignore your complaints. They possibly are out their but who are they!

On the T&Cs bit I didnt phrase it very well I should have said that the T&C could be adjusted to suit (not by the mods) following the advice of the mods

There is no need to pm every new member as many are quite competentant individuals but if they ask about something in particular and you have how shall we say negative knowledge thats the time to let them know.
Most new posters ask where is a good place to buy spares from or a specific service and the replies on the board generally reccommend someone who they have had good service from, as you yourself said you recieved good advice from the board so that proves that the board works fine.
I must admit it seems like you are making a mountain out of a molehill, and as long as good advice is given its fine.

I dont see any point in a so called black list when to be fair the number of complainers on the board tend to be the same few historically and then it tends to be third party rumours and the complainers have not actually had dealings with the companies concerned.

If you wish to set up your own website with a list of the good and bad guys listed from other posters I wonder how long it would last before being shut down and whether you could afford the ensuing legal onslaught.

How do you build a brick wall again? Then at least I'll have something solid to bang my head against
I give up

I can think of a couple or three very busy sites with worse moderation. The Migwelding.co.uk has worse moderation than this one, and yet they let traders post and advertise and even slag off products. I learn't not to buy a certain brand of budget welder there due to the comments (which were not modded), but then that site does not have an associated club and magazine.

I was banned from Sound on Sound magazine forum several years ago for a very minor infraction. The moderators were MUCH MUCH worse on that site than they are here! again a spin-off forum was spawned but that site degenerated into drivel/random chit-chat/banalities and became quiet.

Although it is a shame that Jonothan has gone, -and I hope things can be patched up and him return- it is worth remembering (both sides! please , mods and aggrieved members) that the bigger picture in all this is that the club and this site, while not perfect for everyone, is doing a very good job at its stated aim, which is the promotion of the preservation and use of the Morris Minor. Let us all remember this and remain united for the common benefit and please keep things in perspective!

besides which, to me the real club is the local branch. The East Kent branch is very good. Join your local branch!!!

Sorry to hear of your small heart-attack CJ!
And -oops - I have already commented on the Russel/1098 engine thread!

Back on subject - I do regularly advise newcomers (by PM) of some knowledge I have of a well known (and at one time well respected) trader/restorer/supplier.

I'd beware admitting to doing that. I think I know to whom you refer and if I'm right, I agree 110% with you. However, defamation can be a messy business and even though justified comment is a sound defence, law and justice are not always the same thing (I'll still be a witness for you ).

The thing about terms and conditions is that like many things, they are subjective. As I have said elsewhere (Including to the moderators and HQ), perhaps ad nauseam, that there is an old saying about rules being for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. If you say the T&Cs have been obeyed foolishly, in some cases I would agree, yet in others moderation has been lacking.

I am reminded of one example I quoted in my unanswered email to HQ, which I referred to this evening, since my copy of Minor Matters landed on the mat yesterday, complete with renewal reminder. Until my email of August 2009 is answered, it will be my last Minor Matters. MMOC can manage without me but it's quite mutual. However they may wish to reflect on the fact that “Jobsworth” moderation (Admittedly compounded by HQ’s subsequent lack of common courtesy) is what has led to at least one member not renewing.

I have the same alias on the "Other site" (Though I haven't been on there in a while), so if I don't renew my MMOC membership, I'll see some of you there.

More and more of us - the way things are going.
And I am also careful to say I have heard/or allegedly etc etc - or to refer to a recent thread on necessary repairs to a car that had seemingly been restored by another a few years earlier.

Kevin wrote:

billlobban wrote:In another post Russell of RTG services complains about basically being ripped off having bought an engine in good faith http://mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=33116. No one could deny Russell the right to post details of his bad experience and in the process warn the ordinary member of the pitfalls of buying parts. If it can happen to a professional like Russell it can more easily happen to you or me.
BUT herin lies a problem if I were to comment on a similar experience with any trade supplier my post would most likely be binned by the mods.
I feel that moderators should be getting together to rethink the level of moderation to allow a more free exchange of views between members and if necessary adjust the T&Cs to reflect this.
I would be pleased to hear Kevin's (chief mod) thoughts on the subject

Well in Russells case he had brought the engine from a private buyer and as you say he was right to advise people of the problem especially as he had tried everything to resolve the issue before posting.

Bill if you had purchased from a trader you would have recieved a guarantee of some sort and should have gone back to the trader, the biggest problem is that some complain about something they recieved from a trader that was faulty and just complain about it but dont even bother going back to the trader to let him know. Its by going back to the trader that often shows up the deffective parts as in the rotor arms and condensors a few years ago, if no one complained to the traders they would not necessarily be aware of the problem, which is also why some now have parts made to their specification.

You are also mistaken about the T & C's as regards the moderators we dont/didnt set/create them and we have to work within tighter guidelines than the board posters and cannot adjust them to suit.

If you have a genuine problem with a trader and have not been able to resolve it, you can then contact the committee to find a way forward, but there is nothing to stop you using a PM to inform somebody of your concerns about a traders.

The thing is Kevin, "fairness", the pendulum swings both ways but here it appears to favour the trader.
If Joe Bloggs make a post about bad service from ACME Corporation and states he tried to call but got no answer and no replies to letters etc etc, the post would be edited and Joe would be warned about an infringement.

If ACME Corporation made a post about Joe Bloggs returning an unserviceable exchange and state they couldnt get hold of him then etc etc thats ok.

As you state that members should contact the commitee to find a way forward then the same rules have to be applied to everyone including traders without exception.