Sagging front suspension

[Fingolfin]

Hello all,
The front right-hand suspension on my Moggie has problems! Pushing down on the right-front wing (or sitting in the passenger's [US] seat) causes it to squeal unhappily. More scary to me, there is almost no gap between the top of the tire and the rim of the wing on that side -- whereas on the untroubled left side, there's about a two-or-three-inch gap. Suspension is just about the only Minor thing about which I know next to nothing! Anyone have any ideas about where to begin?

[charlie_morris_minor]

pushing down and squealing as well as being lower.. seems to suggest that damper has gone or is on the way out.. this assumes that it is full of oil.. this is what i would do..

1.. check the oil and top it up if not full.
2.. push the suspension and check that it rebounds and the squeal has gone, if it does not rebound replace the damper before going to the next step, if it rebounds go to the next step
3.. drive to some flat level ground.
4.. measure the distance between the top of the wheel and the wheel arch.
5.. adjust the torsion bars so the car is level. you

this assumes you have a workshop / haynes manual on how to do step 5, if not i have sent you a pm with a useful link.

If i was going to be ordering suspension parts and taking one or both side apart I would take the opportunity to have a look at all my rubbers with a view to replacing them.. of course the squeal might be coming from a rubber..

if the car is that low it is worth check the rebound rubber that is attached to your inner wing is still there, if not replace it as soon as you have got your ride height sorted.

[kennatt]

The damper should not effect the ride hight,it only controls the rebound ,I would look Very closely at the torsion bar,particularly round the chassis where it attaches at the front and on the cross member under the middle of the car where it mounts at the rear,could be bushes perished,mounting points pulling off the chassis as a result of corosion,or a damaged torsion bar(Not very likely),could also simply be a tired torsion bar which needs replacing.The noise could be metal on metal as a result of bushes failing anywhere on the suspension,or the shockers.Needs a good investigation . Good luck with it

[kittyfell]

I agree, the dampers only damp, they have no effect on ride height. Look under the seat to see if the torsion bar rear mount is coming through the floor

[charlie_morris_minor]

off course what was i thinking off.. what can i say.. it was early?

[bmcecosse]

Of course - if the front damper bolts have sheared and the damper is 'hanging off' and has pivoted inwards - that could cause it all to 'squeal' and sit low! So lift the bonnet (hood!) and inspect the bolts carefully, and probably best to NOT drive it until you find (and fix) the cause. But I do think it's likely to be a problem at the centre crossmember where the torsion bar reaction forces are taken into the shell. It's unusual - but not unknown - for a torsion bar to snap!! And then the car will obviously sit down on the bump stop.

[markthe45king]

after me saying mine might have been the speed bumps loosening things - it turns out the mounting points had gone on the crossmember (and the crossmember had pushed up through the floor!) and was causing exactly the same thing. so i'd get that checked first.

[Fingolfin]

Scary stuff! The damper appeared upright and attached firmly, though I admit I didn't inspect it closely enough to be sure. It appears firmly on there in photos. However -- there are two empty screw-holes -- so it's possible they're not sheared, but missing! In that event, though, the suspension problem would have always been there, and I'm certain it's only existed in the past three to six months.

I don't think it's quite entirely on the bump stop, at least not all the time. It was sitting on a slight crosswise incline (the left being the higher side) for many months, and during that time it was on the bump stop; I'm not quite sure if it's still totally on there. Didn't check close enough! I did have the car's structure inspected (and beefed up) some time ago, after the wreck, so I'm fairly sure if the center crossmember were bad the inspector would have fixed it. (No guarantees, naturally, though he guaranteed that it would be safe for even highway driving. Haven't tried yet.)

I thank you all for your quick and smart replies! I'll add more information when I get it.

[bmcecosse]

Just lift the front seat - and the carpet below. If the torsion bar is pushing up through the floor - there's the problem But it could well be that if the suspension was taken apart for repairs, it just hasn't been put back together on the correct spline , and so is sitting low. If so - it's a 15 minute fix. Simples! Oh, and don't worry about the extra screw holes- we all have them, and no-one knows what they are for!

[Fingolfin]

Once again, I thank you all for your quick replies. Very informative.

Now then -- the meat of the issue. I went home this weekend and took about fifteen shots of the torsion bar and the whole right front suspension. It was very illustrative. What we know is this simple fact: the torsion bar HAS NOT gone through the floor. (And thank every god man's ever believed in! Didn't want to have to replace floor panels.) Bar is still firmly attached to what looks like a healthy and happy crossmember.

There was a large rock that had bounced between the torsion bar and the chassis, and seemed to be pushing the bar down. (Also it was wedged in there REALLY WELL.) Some prying later, the rock came out, but the bar still seems to be sitting low. Not sure -- couldn't compare to the other side, because the muffler was in the way.

Photos may help.
[frame][/frame]
This is the entire right-front suspension, or at least as much as would fit in the frame. Obviously, it's on the jack, and so it doesn't really look like there's a big problem with the ride height. Just wait. Oh, and no criticism of my tardiness with the undercoating...
[frame][/frame]
The lovely damper. I'm no expert, of course, but it looks like it's in fair condition. I haven't looked inside yet, nor have I put any new fluid in. But that'll be one of the first things I try when I get back home on 5 May. Is there an optimal fluid to use? I have lots of reference books, so I can look it up when I'm home, unless you like other kinds.
[frame][/frame]
And the torsion bar where it attaches to the crossmember. (There's not actually that much rust -- I increased the contrast so you could see it better, but it made the rust darker.) As you can see, it's quite well attached. You may be able to pick out the rock back there -- as I mentioned, it's removed now. But setting the car back down didn't cause the torsion bar to spring back up. Thoughts? The bar looks too low to me, but I couldn't compare with the other side.
[frame][/frame]
Finally and most interestingly, a difficult-to-achieve shot under the front of the wing facing backward. Yes, that's the kingpin smack against -- wait, that's not a bump-stop? I'm afraid it is, my friends. The other side has the classic egg-shaped centrally mounted one, but this side is offset to the rear, and is wedge-shaped, or at least it once was. Now it's compacted severely on the front side. Is this something pressing to replace or can it wait a while?

That's what I know so far, kids. As I mentioned, I do have more photos, mostly from different angles. If you need a specific view, I'll look around and try to post something that suits you.

[kennatt]

the torsion bar is sitting in the right place in relation to the chassis leg,I've just looked at mine and its about the same,but has your cross member ever been refabricated it looks a bit strangly shaped to me.Can you get a shot of the front end of the torsion bar at the eye bolt through the chassis leg.Ignoring the rubber bump stop and therefore eliminating a different sized one fitted ,the distance (on my 55 series 2) from the top of the trunnion(Suspension leg) to the outer lip of the bodywork where the bump stop is fitted is 5 inches.So if you take that odd bump stop off and see what the distance is it will give you a base to see how much the suspension is down,It certainly shouldn't be in contact when sitting on the road,That could also be the noise you are hearing,the rubber being squashed about,or by the look of it maybe it's not seated firmly and you have got metal to metal between the bump stop and body.

[bmcecosse]

It's certainly been sitting low - and unfortunately appears to have mashed that 'bump stop' through the inner wing. Probably the torsion bar is fine - and simply needs the front rear lower arm moved round a couple of splines to lift the car. A 10 minute job IF it's all well oiled! That inner wing will need some reconstruction I fear.........

[RobThomas]

In that photo of the front suspension leg, does it show a crack behind the steering rack that goes vertically up the bodywork? Is it also showing the chassis rail and top damper arm not being parallel with the torsion bar? If so, it would suggest that the chassis rail has folded somehow and 'broken the spine' of the car. Might just be the camera angle, though. Fingers crossed.

[autolycus]

Is the damper arm normally that close to the front of the rectangular hole in the inner wing? I still haven't got a Moggy to go and look at it (shame!). It also looks as though the tie-rod is acting as the rebound stop on the first picture. I think Rob may be onto something.

Kevin

[RobThomas]

Is the gap between the front wing and the door even all the way up?

[Fingolfin]

You all are just wonderful!

Yes, the gap between the door and the wing is quite even all the way up. This is the original wing, too, so hasn't been messed with to MAKE the gap right.

Rob, good spotting about the possible crack -- but I'm fairly certain this is underseal being lit at a weird angle. The car is quite structurally sound in my experience (though I have little experience with car structures in general), and indeed the structure's been beefed up in some spots by a trusted mechanic. The bent-up look is almost certainly because the torsion bar descends as it travels backward; the chassis leg (rail?) is quite sound and straight, and the kingpin is pretty close to vertical. (Just guessing there, as I took no measurement, but they sure look right.) Look at photo 3 -- you see how the torsion bar sits low in the back? I believe it's lower than in the front.

The damper arms on both sides looked about the same. A little less oil on the other one. But positioning is just the same. (Sorry I didn't get a photo of the left damper!) Ah, and Kevin, that's also angle -- the tie-rod is sound and quite well positioned. It only looks that way because the suspension is dangling, that is, the front end is jacked up, and also a little because the wheel is turned toward the left a bit.

The inner wing has been mashed by repeated travels over bad roads, methinks -- the other side's arch was exactly the same (mashed). I fixed that (don't hurt me for saying this) with a hammer; what had been mashed up was mashed back down. I understand it'll need replaced, but it doesn't seem like a huge issue right now. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Does trunnion = kingpin?

Can't tell you if the crossmember's been modified. I wouldn't doubt it, since Mog has an MM rear axle.

I'm a little frightened to take off the bump-stop and set it back onto the ground, because it seems to me that if there's no bump-stop then the inner wing arch will just rest on the kingpin, and that doesn't seem like a good thing. But if you suppose it's necessary and non-threatening...

BMC, the entire car was once well-oiled -- but that was two owners ago! The owner previous to me didn't take care of it, and of course I'm only just learning what to do with it. So it hasn't been well oiled, I fear. Nevertheless, we'll give that a shot. Any idea which hole it should go in? I see four aside from the one it's in now.

I must take comparison photos of both sides! Thank you all so much for your help. Photos in 1.5 weeks. If you have any more ideas, please don't keep them to yourselves!

[alainmoran]

10 minute job 'if it's well oiled' ... and by the looks of those pics, it's not been kept oiled at all

It'll take you the best part of a day to fix & you will need a big hammer and a vice to get those splines apart ... do yourself a favour and clean them up & cover them in copper ease before you put it back together ... getting your suspension aligned is an iterative process - you will need to set the suspension, drive it about for a few days and then re-set the suspension - repeat until level.

[kennatt]

Is the damper arm normally that close to the front of the rectangular hole in the inner wing No it isn't Just had a look at mione and it passes through the hole exactly in the middle I fear that rob has hit on it and looking at the line of the front chassis leg I think that the rail has collapsed and suspect a majour rebuild. Again a shot of the innerside where the torsion bar front mounts would maybe confirm.

[kennatt]

what evers the problem then there one thing for certain the top of the suspension should NOT be anywhere near the bump stop when just stood on its wheels its only there to account for excessive travel over bumps to prevent damage to the inner wing. Mine has one missing( I know ,I know on the list of jobs to do) and it has never yet hit the frame,theres def something out of place,if it had broken its back at the chassis leg near to the torsion bar mount would'nt the shocker arm be closer to the rear of the square cut out rather than the front as in the photo,wouldn't this only be so if the leg had gone further back

[Fingolfin]

...or, Kennatt, if the crossmember holding up the engine bulkhead were pulling forward. In either case, the body's out of alignment in roughly the same direction. Nonetheless, my friend, the position of the damper arm -- or anything to do with the damper -- can't account for the lack of spring action, and at the end of the day that's what keeps the suspension from being near the bump-stop, not any structural lack or lack-of-lack.

I have no clear shots of the torsion bar-wishbone arm link, unfortunately. I'm having my dad go out and look at the damper arms...he says that the right damper is indeed further forward in its slot than the left one. Dang. Good spotting, everyone. So the shell will have to be aligned again. I'm almost certain (of course anything's possible) that if there are problems with the structure, they're not widespread. I say this because the doors fit well and generally the wings and other add-on body bits are aligned.