anti roll bar experiences please

[cormorant]

I would be very interested to hear from people who have actually fitted an anti-roll bar to a standard or relatively standard Minor (i.e. not twin cam or V8!) as a first mod to the suspension set up. Do people rate the mod and if so, the Grumpy style kit which bolts to the underside of the engine mounting turrets or the other one which fixes to the front crossmember.

Was it a big improvement and why?

[PSL184]

I have the front crossmenber mounting type from ESM. Front end rolls much less but also tends to understeer more or that maybe cause I can push harder through corners now?

[jonathon]

If its the first mod to the suspension, then I would suggest a good telescopic damper kit . With this fitted it will negate the need for a roll bar, unless you are racing it, plus you will experience a more controlled ride.We have never found the need to fit an anti roll bar , even to our 180bhp track cars, and these have the telescopics front and rear.
I'm not too keen on the fitting method of these roll bars, especially the need to drill through the chassis leg in order to bolt it on. There is no 'crush tube' to prevent overtightening and you are putting the full loadings of the roll bar through this point. I'd much rather see a proper welded on fitting in this area.
In the roll bars favour , it is cheap and will reduce roll to a degree, but I'd rather spend a bit more and cure the 'cause' and not the 'symptom'.

[Peetee]

If you really want a ARB then I would definitely advocate uprating the dampers.
I ran a mildly modified 948 with 20W oil in the dampers and a front ARB and was very pleased with the balance of handling and power.

[MarkyB]

I've got the ESM bar as well and I'm very happy with it.
It probably does encourage you to corner faster as the car feels more stable and "modern".
If you start getting into understeer territory then either slow down a bit or look at better tyres or other mods.

[Peetee]

I would imagine (although I'm no engineer (although I might think I am )) that a modification to reduce the roll in corners will also require an adjustment to the camber angle of the wheels. As the car leans it's suspension angles lean with it. Any compression resulting from this will be factored into the geometry to maintain a suitable contact patch at high lateral loads. If these high lateral loads occur at 'less lean' then the tyre angle may be less than ideal resulting in understeer and/or severe tyre wear.

Shoot me down in flames if you wish.

[cormorant]

I wonder if I should have titled this post "which mod is best" now! I know bmcecosse thinks the standard dampers are ok and puts heavier oil in them, interesting that JLH thinks teles are more important than an ARB.
Why should teles be better? I know the original lever arm dampers are pretty old fashioned now but what is their main weakness compared to teles?

[simmitc]

I've tried an ARB in the past and think that about the only thing it does is to make more work and bits to undo when doing any other work on the suspension. I agree completely with what Jonathan says.

[MartinB]

About twenty years ago when my Minor was fairly standard (with tuned 1098cc engine etc), I had the telescopic shocks all round and then fitted an ARB on the front and it made virtually no difference at all. I ended up taking it off. As Jonathon said, teles first then see if you need it.

Martin

[IslipMinor]

Although the picture is on the Silverstone GP circuit, that is only for the odd track day.

I have the Burton front anti-roll bar, which uses the 'drill through the chassis leg' mounting, which is horrible. So I welded a plate on to the sloping front of each leg and drilled/tapped 2 holes to fix the mountings to.

Then spaced out the lower arm to give a hint of negative camber and also ~1° more castor to give more 'turn in', but slightly heavier steering at parking speeds.

Finished off with an Ital rear anti-roll bar to give a very neutral handling response.

It has Koni telescopic dampers all round, plus polyurethene bushes everywhere.

The result is minimal roll, unless severely provoked, superb turn-in and far better handling than I would have expected from a 50 year old car- just shows how good Issigonisis's original design was in its day, and still is with some simple improvements.

[bmcecosse]

As Richard says - if fitting arb at the front - you should also fit one at the rear! Better damping IS the top priority for the Minor, either add teledampers or simply put more viscous oil in the lever arms as a first step. Understaeer is easily quelled wioth a little negative camber on the fornt wheels. Unfortunately the Minor front suspension goes +ve camber on bump - designed that way to be 'safe' and induce understeer - which the average driver could deal with quite naturally (by winding on more lock!) . So overall reduction of roll can only be a good thing - but do so at both ends of the car - not just the front. I find myTraveller is fine for 'fast road' use with good damping and some front negative - no arbs. My TR7 is very stiff in roll - heavy bars at both ends and stiff springs and dampers - and it is a very different machine to the Minor - much harsher - but does go round corners well!

[cormorant]

I think I will try heavier oil in the dampers as a first step then and take it from there. So bmc you recommend a bit of negative camber on the front how do you go about that?
What set up have you got on the traveller then is it teles or lever arm?

[jonathon]

a half to one degree negative is as much as you need for road use. this is created by spacing out the eyebolt with the relevant sized spacers until you achieve the desired camber angle. Each side should be treated seperately, but a rule of thumb is that a 2mm spacer will give the desired results. You must measure this gain correctly and I'd be tempted to do a full geo check on the front end whilst your there.
Thicker oil is sometimes added to the lever arms but this is not to manufacturers specification, so don't go hunting BM's head if the seals fail

[Peetee]

so don't go hunting BM's head if the seals fail

Indeed, very much a lottery in that respect. I had one car which ran very well like this and another which blew 3 of the seals.
I'm running gas adjustable tele's now and I'm pleased with the results so far. Very similar resistance to standard shocks filled with 20W but a great deal less of the harshness through the body of the car.

[bmcecosse]

Not had any failures with thicker oil my dampers! If they are alreday leaking - they certainly won't heal up. Very worthwhile modification. Nothing wrong with good old teledampers - they are double acting, and nicely adjustable with oil changes !
My eyebolts are spaced out 1/4" with steel plate - helps spread the load on the chassis legs. Note when doing this - you must retrack the wheels afterwards. To check camber - park on dead flat surface - hold spirit level up and down against the tyre and compare results both sides. It doesn't really matter what the angle is - as long as both sides are pretty much equal! Any doubt about the level ground - turn the car round for a second opinion.

[jonathon]

To check camber - park on dead flat surface - hold spirit level up and down against the tyre and compare results both sides. It doesn't really matter what the angle is - as long as both sides are pretty much equal! Any doubt about the level ground - turn the car round for a second opinion.

This will only tell you if you have pos or neg camber but not the degree . This should be measured with the correct guages for accuracy easily done if the tracking is being checked too.

[Peetee]

It doesn't really matter what the angle is

Although, I might add, 45 degrees is a bit too much.

[MarkyB]

At last!
A useful application for the "spirit level" application on an iphone.
Shame I haven't got one .

[alainmoran]

you could always make-do with a physical spirit level from poundland ;)

[nigelr2000]

What network are the poundland ones on ??