Morris Minor Owners Club

Dear Minor Fans!

This topic is about the brakes and gearbox...

To cut a long story short, I took my moggy (A 1963, 1098cc saloon) to the garage as it really didn't sound healthy. I asked the mechanic to see if he would sort out the horrible clunking, clattering noises eminating from the gearbox; I still have relatively little mechanical nouse, so I'm not confident enough to sort out a major problem on my own yet. When I popped in to the garage to ask if it was sorted today, I was told I probably need a new gearbox. Also, before the thought of the cost of a new gearbox began to sink in, he informed me he'd run some checks and dicovered one of the front brakes has failed ("not responding at all"!!!) I trust the mechanic implicitly (as he himself is a moggy owner).

I am still new to classic cars (and cars in general!) and don't want to make a costly mistake through my own inexperience. So here's where I would be greatly thankful for any advice/help:

By the way, to my knowledge, the car is relatively origional and to factory spec, save the odd part here and there!

1: How much should I be paying for a mechanic to replace the gearbox with a new/restored one?

2: Similarly, how much for a replacement brake?

I have already thought of modifying the car; and it seems different people hold different views on the issue. Now seems a good point to sort it out while everything is up in the air!

3: What benefit would there be from installing a 5-speed gear box? I have heard that quite a few people have made this modification and that it is quite effective. I can imagine improved fuel efficiency... I consider myself a "brisk" driver, i.e. I'll get up to 60 and beyond on the dual carriageway/A roads, just where you want a fifth gear!!! Please give me your views/own experiences. And how would you suggest I go about it? What gearbox is best??!!

4: On the theme of modifications, now also seems a good point to look into installing better brakes; I use the minor as an everyday car, so this safety mod would seem to be a no brainer!!! However, once again, my lack of mechanical knowledge lets me down. What sort of brakes do I look for; do I just get better/newer drum brakes, or should I look at purchasing disk brakes...and again; What type is reccomended? Brakes off a morris marina? Can even newer brakes be added, or would this mean new wheels? I really want to keep the slim, original wheels as they look the part, in my opinion.

Thank you if you managed to read all this, even if you can't offer any advice on the matter. As I have already said, I'm quite a novice, but I am eager to learn, and am therefore grateful for any advice you can give.

I love my car! It's called Monty by the way!! Now I just need to go and plead with the bank manager so I can keep it on the road!!!

Thanks,

Edward Pearson (& Monty)

P.S. Also, for future reference, what could have caused my gearbox to break in the first place? Is it a common problem?

Well standard brakes are adequate for the vehicle, but if you want to upgrade you can buy a ford based kit, which isn't very cheap but is very effective. However it can give a harder pedal if used without a servo. You can upgrade to the girling brakes off a marina, but parts are scarce and new conversion bits aren't available (although I believe they will be shortly).

As for the gearbox, sourcing a good used 'box is probably the cheapest way forwards. The type 9 5 speed requires a different a different transmission tunnel, propshaft, bellhousing and gearbox crossmember. Personally I think it takes away a lot of the character of the car but its a strong gearbox. You could always source a 3.9:1 or 3.7:1 diff for more comfortable cruising.

I can come and have a look this weekend Ed, brakes wont be that expensive to sort but gearbox is going to be a fair bit more.

The main way you are going to save money long term is by doing more of the maintenance yourself. Maybe you could hang around at the garage and assist/watch the repairs to get more familiar with the car if you know the guy well?

Picky

Hi Edward,

like you I'm a Yorkshire dwelling everyday Morris Minor driver, and I had brake problems (which surfaced at MOT time).

If you put new front brake cylinders on on both sides, you will be far more pleased with the braking once they have bedded in (providing your drums are serviceable and the shoes are in decent nick, not too worn or having any scoring). I think a lot of people moan about Moggy brakes often because theirs are not in best condition. That said, there are several upgrade routes: Wolesley front drums / backplates / cylinders are a bolt on swap and people rave over the improvement; There are ex. Midget discs, ex marina discs or the full blown ford based kit for new discs, although the latter is iro £400. If you search on the forum you will be able to access a lot of info on brake upgrades.

Replacement gearboxes seem to go on ebay for a tenner upwards, and I recall recon ones are about £300 + vat. I dont think fitting is a big job, I would guess between £50 & £100 for the mechanics labour costs (or DIY and save the loot!).

Dont know about what made it break, I've never had one that did on either of the moggys I've had. I have some gearbox bits (near M62 J27) which you could have dibs on if you decide you want to have a look at your bust box yourself.

Hope this helps - good luck mate and keep us posted!

As above - the best option cost-wise is to simply let the mechanic sort out the existing brakes which should be 8" drums at the front (7" at the rear). these - if in good order are perfectly adequate for everyday use - and you didn't seem to know one brake was not working anyway ? Assuming it needs 4 new cylinders and a new set of shoes (worst scenario really) that should cost about £60 for parts plus whatever labour - but really it's only an hour to do both sides for a competent mechanic. Even I can do it in much less than 2 hours! Discs will cost you several hundered pounds new - second hand are sometimes available - but you may be buying trouble. The cheapest brake upgrade (and in my view the best!) is to fit 9" front drums from a Wolseley 1500 - buy for ~ £60 and very simple install - and they work like a dream. Only snag - hard to find. But for normal motoring - standard drums will be fine.
Gearbox - most common fault is NO OIL in the box. Hopefully the mechanic has filled it up - you don't list any other faults ie jumping out of gear etc. The syncromesh on second gear is easily beaten, especially on an older box - if that's a problem- learn to double-de-clutch! If it needs replacement a fully re-con box will be a few hundred pounds plus half a day to fit and may as well put a new clutch in too. Best bet - chase up a known good box on here or on ebay - and have that fitted. A five speed conversion is many hundred pounds - and longer to install. Only really worth doing if planning serious mileage with lots of Motorway driving. Some folk - including me - have simply installed a 3.7 diff which gives much more relaxed cruising and hopefully better fuel economy. Cost ~ £70 for a decent diff and less than 2 hours to install. A different speedo will be needed for both the 5 speed and the 3.7 diff conversions. Mine cost £5 from ebay!

Hello Edward and welcome to the Forum. You've already seen that there's loads of good advice on here. Sometimes it's conflicting, but that doesn't mean anyone is wrong, simply that there are different opinions on some things.

The great thing about the Minor is that most parts are readily available and relatively cheap. The car is also simple to work on, and many of today's "experts" will have started with no more knowledge than you; it's just experience that one learns form working on the car.

To go through your questions:

1) A recon gearbox will be around £300 plus VAT plus oil and sundries. Labour time will depend on a few things (for example, will the bolts holding the cross member on come out, or are they rusted in and will need new bits welding in to fit the new box). I would allow up to six hours at whatever rate your chap charges. There are different ways of removing the box, so discuss with him whether he wants the floor/gearbox cover out (may need to remove seats). If so, you could easily do that work before taking the car in and save a few pounds.

2) You will need two wheel cylinders, between £9 and £18 each plus VAT. Probably a set of brake shoes (fitted to both sides of car) plus possibly some pipe fittings and brake fluid - again, depends on what state everything is in, and when it was last changed. It shouldn't take that long, but allow two hours labour.

3) The Ford box is quieter and stronger, with snychro on 1st, but heavier. It works well with a 1098 engine, but you would hanve to change down from 5th on long motorway hills. It's not cheap, as noted by others, there are a whole set of extras that you need. If you used all new parts, you could easily be looking at £1K plus labour.

4) Try properly set up Minor brakes first as it's cheap to put yours back in order. The various options suggested by others above are all valid and good. The only time that Minor brakes really look poor is under heavy and continuous braking where they can get hot and then fade.

As to modify or not, it's purely a personal choice; and both standard and modified cars are welcome.

It sounds as if you've got a good offer from Picky.

Edward-

I just read your post. May I complement you on a well thought out and worded series of questions? Very nice.

I have found, in my short 10-month experience, that a well sorted Moggie with a 1098 engine, four speed gearbox, and fresh drum brakes is adequate as a daily transport. I found myself a bit more vigilant whilst driving the Morris, compared to a modern car, but you probably will find that nearly every single motorist (even on the motorways and autobahns) will help you to accomodate safe operation of your car.

I can't offer you any further words of advice, but am pleased to see another new Moggie owner here.

Hi Edward,

like you I'm a Yorkshire dwelling everyday Morris Minor driver, and I had brake problems (which surfaced at MOT time).

If you put new front brake cylinders on on both sides, you will be far more pleased with the braking once they have bedded in (providing your drums are serviceable and the shoes are in decent nick, not too worn or having any scoring). I think a lot of people moan about Moggy brakes often because theirs are not in best condition. That said, there are several upgrade routes: Wolesley front drums / backplates / cylinders are a bolt on swap and people rave over the improvement; There are ex. Midget discs, ex marina discs or the full blown ford based kit for new discs, although the latter is iro £400. If you search on the forum you will be able to access a lot of info on brake upgrades.

Replacement gearboxes seem to go on ebay for a tenner upwards, and I recall recon ones are about £300 + vat. I dont think fitting is a big job, I would guess between £50 & £100 for the mechanics labour costs (or DIY and save the loot!).

Dont know about what made it break, I've never had one that did on either of the moggys I've had. I have some gearbox bits (near M62 J27) which you could have dibs on if you decide you want to have a look at your bust box yourself.

Hope this helps - good luck mate and keep us posted!

Thanks so much everyone for your time and advice... I'm amazed by how quick the replys are. I'm going to have a long think and also see what finances dictate...

Out of interest...although I don't have any intention to sell, would a five speed gear box add value to the car?

I'll let you all know what happens!!!

hello find a pair of front wolseley brakes a doddle to fit makes a big improvement,,,grandad

5 speed box would add some value - but not anything like the cost to fit it!

Out of interest...although I don't have any intention to sell, would a five speed gear box add value to the car?

A little but bearing in mind you are not DIY, as mentioned a kit can cost £1,000 for evrything + fitting

hello find a pair of front wolseley brakes a doddle to fit makes a big improvement,,,grandad

Before its recommended again please explain to Edward that its not a direct swap unless you keep the Wolseley cylinders and if new ones of those are reqd they are not cheap.

Kevin wrote: bearing in mind you are not DIY, as mentioned a kit can cost £1,000 for evrything + fitting

A bit more than that if you're having them fitted

hello find a pair of front wolseley brakes a doddle to fit makes a big improvement,,,grandad

Before its recommended again please explain to Edward that its not a direct swap unless you keep the Wolseley cylinders and if new ones of those are reqd they are not cheap.

Worth pointing out disc kits based on Ford parts but made to the Minor PCD* are available - about £500 - 600 to buy (not fitted), so not as cheap as the infamous W drums, but every bit as easy/bolt on - and rather more effecient. Not a pop to start it all over again, btw, a simple statement of fact.
I'd agree that it's not really worth going to the 5 speed box with a 1098, and changing the diff would probably be you best bet if you have a problem with the standard ratios.

*As a mod, once again not allowed to say where, even though I no longer work there - which is probably enough for someone here to be able to tell you, should you care.

bigginger wrote:

Kevin wrote: bearing in mind you are not DIY, as mentioned a kit can cost £1,000 for evrything + fitting

A bit more than that if you're having them fitted

hello find a pair of front wolseley brakes a doddle to fit makes a big improvement,,,grandad

Before its recommended again please explain to Edward that its not a direct swap unless you keep the Wolseley cylinders and if new ones of those are reqd they are not cheap.

Worth pointing out disc kits based on Ford parts but made to the Minor PCD* are available - about £500 - 600 to buy (not fitted), so not as cheap as the infamous W drums, but every bit as easy/bolt on - and rather more effecient. Not a pop to start it all over again, btw, a simple statement of fact.
I'd agree that it's not really worth going to the 5 speed box with a 1098, and changing the diff would probably be you best bet if you have a problem with the standard ratios.

*As a mod, once again not allowed to say where, even though I no longer work there - which is probably enough for someone here to be able to tell you, should you care.

it would be a lot cheaper than disc set up and works very well not every one has hundereds of pound to spend on disc setups,,grandad

bigginger wrote:Worth pointing out disc kits based on Ford parts but made to the Minor PCD* are available - about £500 - 600 to buy (not fitted), so not as cheap as the infamous W drums, but every bit as easy/bolt on - and rather more effecient. Not a pop to start it all over again, btw, a simple statement of fact.

I'm not against discs at all, but I take slight issue with them being "every bit as easy" to fit as W drums because of the additional changes to the braking system that they require. With discs you also have to remove the top hat seal from the master cylinder, it's recommended to fit a remote brake fluid reservoir otherwise the fluid can run out when the pads wear down, and I've heard it said that the pedal can be quite heavy if you don't also fit a servo.

Oh dear Andrew - I'm afraid you have started it all over again.
I take issue with the 'rather more efficient' - the Wolseley drums are extremely efficient! Twin leading shoe design so built-in self-servo action. And they will stop the car over and over again going down hill without slightest fade so far for me, and low pedal pressure !
As Alex points out - no need to fiddle with the master cylinder or fit a remote reservoir - or a servo! W brakes are easily installed and in full working order in less than 2 hours - job done. The pity is that no supplier has come up with a kit using new backplates (surely not too difficult to make) and readily available modern car drums redrilled to the 4" pcd.

Welcome to the forum Edward. I am not a technical person but in my limited experience i would suggest not rushing headlong into anything without accepting the offers from others to come and have a nose at your minor. I spent money on MEA that i didnt need to on brakes and i have learned how to do lots of stuff myself with the help of other members.
Its good to have you join and with regard to the subject heading, stick around and you will see lots of nice minors produced from cars that are REALLY falling to peices,, literally..

Mines not falling to pieces....it just sounds like it is!!

On the W brake saga - it is indeed best to keep the W wheel cylinders and I agree - they can be expensive if they need replacing. But shopping around definitely helps - and replacement seals for a DIY overhaul are available very cheaply.