1960 Traveller Wheel Offset?

[WillST]

Does anyone know what the stock offset is of the OEM disc wheels of a Minor 1000? I understand the PCD is 4 x 101.6, but I need the offset as well to get started. I am starting down the long road of wheels & tires for my Traveller . Thanks, Wil

[bmcecosse]

The PCD is exactly 4" (so don't bother to convert it to metric!) and I suspect the offset is ZERO. As I remember the centre is pretty much bang in the middle of the rim.

[jaekl]

Since the hubs were designed to have a zero offset, it makes you wonder how much offset loading the bearings can take. And in the rear the axle shaft's extra role is to keep the wheel upright. Offsets will increase this role. Has anybody with wider wheels, presumably with the extra width outward, experience failure due to the increase offset?
A stock wheel with a stock tire is fairly close to the upper trunion. Perhaps the tire bulge can be moved inward a half inch. Spritget discs moves the wheels out about a half inch at each wheel, so then you could add an inch to the inward direction. The rear can take a bit more.
There is also the steering offset to consider (tire patch versus swivel pin intersection with road surface)

[bmcecosse]

The hub bearings are not great - but failure with the standard wheels is 'not common'. Steering offset will be important - although my Rally Minor ran with 1" spacers front and rear and all was well!

[bigginger]

Since the hubs were designed to have a zero offset, it makes you wonder how much offset loading the bearings can take. And in the rear the axle shaft's extra role is to keep the wheel upright. Offsets will increase this role. Has anybody with wider wheels, presumably with the extra width outward, experience failure due to the increase offset?

Bear in mind that at least two different wheels (on the later models) were offered as standard. Were they (out of interest) really "designed to have a zero offset"?

[plastic_orange]

I've run 6 x13's for years on the front without a bearing failure, and 6's then 8's on the rear likewise.

Pete

[WillST]

I've run 6 x13's for years on the front without a bearing failure, and 6's then 8's on the rear likewise. Pete

Pete, what brand of wheels were these, was the pcd 101.6mm/4" or was it 100mm, and what were the offsets on these 6s and 8s (if you know)? Thanks, Wil

[WillST]

A stock wheel with a stock tire is fairly close to the upper trunion. Perhaps the tire bulge can be moved inward a half inch. Spritget discs moves the wheels out about a half inch at each wheel, so then you could add an inch to the inward direction.

Jaekl, thanks much, that is exactly what I'm trying to find out about--what more modern 13"/14"/15"/16", 4x101.6/4" pcd (the latter two with lower aspect ratio tires) wheel/tire combinations will fit in a MM 1000 wheel well area? My feeling is the offsets are the key. Thanks, Wil

[bmcecosse]

You must NOT attempt to use 100mm PCD wheels - and there is nothing in the modern market except the classic Mini using 4" pcd wheels. Therefore you must either look to old stock wheels - or go to the specialist wheel makers and have wheels made to suit the Minor hubs. There are various suppliers in the UK who can supply suitable wheels - JLH ( http://www.jlhmorrisminors.co.uk/) for example had a good offer on wheels/tyres going recently - but you can surely find a manufacturer in the USA to supply wheels drilled to 4" pcd ?
And from the various bits of advice above - it would appear you can go about 1/2" inwards and then any extra width outwards. Some have used the classic Mini 13" 'Roverlite' wheels - but they are too heavily inset and so have to be used with spacers to keep the tyres off the kingpins. Not a huge problem because the overall 'offset' ends up just as it would be with more offset wheels - you just need to be prepared for it with the spacers and long studs ready to hand!

[plastic_orange]

My first set of alloy wheels in 6 x13 were Cosmic Mark 2's - bought around 1973. These required a small spacer to keep the tyre off the upright, and i moved these on to my wifes Minor which was sold in 1984. This car was still driving around years after with the wheels fitted, and with no bearing problems.
I fitted Cobra slot mags to my Minor to replace the cosmics, and these fitted without the need for spacers - 6 x13 front, 8 x13 rear.
The fronts fit within the wheel arches, but the rears protrude a bit. You could extend the arches, or fit 2 inch oversize rear wings to suit, but am looking for a pair of either 5 1/2 or 6's to replace them with (missed a set on ebay recently as I had to be out when bidding finished).
Check out the wheels fitted to my latest Minor here:

http://www.morrisminoroc.co.uk/index.ph ... ic&t=21615

I'll measure the spacings for you today sometime. Remember, these are 4 INCH PCD.

Pete

[plastic_orange]

Didn't notice that you were in the States when I replied. My mate took his traveller to Grand Junction with him last year, and is finding a similar problem getting wheels out there.
Funnily enough, my mate ordered Centreline wheels from the states, and they drilled them to his chosen wheel spacing - so you could try that.

Pete

[IslipMinor]

Additional offset does not seem to have any serious undesirable effects on the front bearings, and certainly not on directional stability. At the rear we had oil seal problems after a track day on the Imola GP circuit 7 years ago, and after that fitted Peter May's double bearing hubs, which was at least 20,000 miles ago.

Our wheels are 5.5" x 13", and most of the extra width is additional offset - they've been on for nearly 40 years. Add in the Midget disc hubs and spacers behind the lower suspension arm to eliminate the positive camber introduced when lowering the suspension, and the track has been increased by more than 4" at the front and at least 3" at the rear!

Doing the same thing on a modern car designed with negative offset geometry might be a different thing altogether!

Used to run 165/80 tyres, and these gave no clearance problems anywhere, but more recently with 185/70 tyres, clearance at the front is within 10mm of the upright on the inside, and just clear of the wing return lip on bump. At the rear, on full bump, the tyre just catches the lip. I would have rolled the rear lip when we restored it 10 years ago, if I had known we were going to use the 185 section tyres. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing!

[WillST]

You must NOT attempt to use 100mm PCD wheels

I am fully aware of the 1.6mm pcd issue.

[WillST]

Our wheels are 5.5" x 13", and most of the extra width is additional offset - they've been on for nearly 40 years. Add in the Midget disc hubs..... Used to run 165/80 tyres, and these gave no clearance problems anywhere, but more recently with 185/70 tyres, clearance at the front is within 10mm of the upright on the inside, and just clear of the wing return lip on bump. At the rear, on full bump, the tyre just catches the lip.

Great info, thanks! I'm going with Midget disc front brakes (which means installing much stronger taper roller bearings in the Midget hubs), so believe this yields a much stronger front wheel bearing set-up. What brand of wheels are your 5.5x13s? Did you have to have a MM 4x4" pcd drilled for them, or were they standard with a 4x4" pcd? Thanks, Wil

[bmcecosse]

Indeed - taper roller bearings if you can get them in the hubs are always going to be much better. But there's not a lot wrong with the standard bearings if they have been kept lubricated!

[bigginger]

You must NOT attempt to use 100mm PCD wheels

I am fully aware of the 1.6mm pcd issue.

Is that on a Matchbox car, then?

[bmcecosse]

Maybe a Dublo Dinky ?

[WillST]

Is that on a Matchbox car, then?

Sure wish I had my old Matchbox/Dinky collection now....., and that wonderful old Meccano/Erector Set too........

[IslipMinor]

Will,

They are not a 'brand' as such. In the late 60's / early 70's there was a huge move to 'wide wheels and radial ply tyres' in the UK and these were bought as part of that. The rim is a one-piece Rubery Owen part that has been welded on to an A40 Farina wheel centre, which are 4" PCD as standard. The practice of using a then widely available centre and welding a new rim on to it was very common, as was the not so good practice of splitting the existing rim and inserting a 'band' to widen it. Done properly it's probably ok, but at that time they got a very bad name.

Why do you want to fit taper roller hub bearings? There is an argument that the standard angular contact bearings with the spacer actually strengthen the stub axle when tightened, which is lost when fitting taper roller bearings that have to have a small free play.

I run the standard bearings and spacer in the Midget hubs and get at least 10,000 miles from them. This includes many miles at UK and European motorway speeds and a number of track days. The tyres are Yokohame A021R, which are a quite sticky road-legal competition tyre that allows considerably more cornering force than was ever envisaged when the hubs were designed in the 1940's!! Mind you this coming Saturday they will be at walking pace as part of the London Lord Mayor's Parade, followed on Monday by a track day at Goodwood.

The ever-versatile Morris Minor!

[WillST]

Why do you want to fit taper roller hub bearings? There is an argument that the standard angular contact bearings with the spacer actually strengthen the stub axle when tightened, which is lost when fitting taper roller bearings that have to have a small free play.

Richard, well, I hadn't heard that discussion before! I always thought that taper bearings were stronger than regular ball bearings, especially with heavy side-loads (i.e., on the track). Perhaps the clamped spacer does make the whole assembly stronger. Isn't there still a possibility of the inner race blowing out the side of a regular ball bearing, which cannot happen with a taper bearing?

I won't be racing my Minor and have already installed the taper races, so I guess I'll continue down the path I'm on. Interesting info though....

Rgds,
Wil