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Theres a hole in my sill

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:12 pm
by winger300
http://www.auto-part.com/auto/shop/Display.asp?page=25

Looking at that diagram of body parts, i think it is part 26, the front Quarter panel.

Where the front most drainage hole is, just in line with the front door pillar the hole has rusted and become about the size of a ten pence piece. The metal around this area is a little flaky, but the rest seems ok.

Is this going to fail the MOT due next month?

Is it going to be costly to get put right?

Can this be done by any garage that offers welding services, or is it best to get the Morris experts onto it?

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:44 pm
by Chris Morley
Ah, the dilemma which faces many new moggie owners ( and old ones!) I would bet this won't be the last hole you discover within the next few years. 26 looks like the outer sill. I don't think my MOT examiner would fail it at the moment but many would. The outer sill doesn't add that much to the car's structural strength compared to the inner sill which is the bottom of a very sturdy box section.

If it fails on this hole you will need (at a minimum) a patch welded over it, which anyone could do. Ideally this should be butt welded onto sound metal because any rusty metal left under the patch will corrode it very quickly. Cheap MOT repairs often involve welding patches onto rotten metal.

It would be better in the long run to let a specialist weld on a new outer sill if you can afford it. However, removing the sill cover may reveal extensive corrosion - be prepared for bad news. If you are lucky this might be an isolated hole.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:13 pm
by rayofleamington
Hi Andrew,
Hadn't spotted your post until now.
It's very typical that Minor owners (including me) will do a mixture of repairs. It is often wise to rationalise your time (or garage bills) and avoid some panel replacement if there are other things that need to be done first.
If a panel is patched in places and is generally on its last legs, then don't patch the patches, start again with a new panel.
If you DIY, then make sure it is done properly, fully removing the old metal and rot rather than the usual bodge repair 'rot sandwich' which will act like a sponge and rust through in 30 seconds flat.
If the panel is quite solid except for 1 small area, you won't get much benefit from replacing the whole thing. Cut out around the hole until you find strong metal. The hole usually goes from ther starting size of a 10p to fist size (but sometimes carries on until you give up and change the whole panel). Try and get all the rot and junk out from behind where you have cut open to avoid the sponge effect. Then weld in a patch.
Re-make the drain hole to allow draining! - You can also spray waxoil through the drain hole if you want it to last as long as possible. Don't worry about drilling additional drain holes, I've never known an mot failure from that.

The patched panel should last anywhere between 1 year, if the panel was quite bad to start with, and another 10 years + if you protected the area with waxoil, and the rest of the panel was ok.

However if it's just a cheap garage patch job, don't expect it to last long and don't be surprised if they don't prepare the hole at all. That takes time and as you can't see it afterwards, they rarely bother. When it rots back throung in 1 or 2 years they get more paid work to do....

Certain areas, like the rear chassis rails where the shock absorber and leaf springs are connected can be patched but even if you do a good patch job, it is rarely going to last long or give good strength so these are 1 area that you rarely benefit from patching.

As for patches areas like the centre-bearer (cross member) I've rarely seen good ones that give strength or last long. This is another area where a good repair panel is advisable. My last cross member repair was where the previous (proffessional) repair had shortened (cut off) the repair panel in between the torsion bar end, and the torsion bar arm mounting hole. This gave him less work to do.
Obviously the adjacent part of the crossmember which had not been replaced didn't last long. I was slightly miffed to take 6" off the end of a new repair section and weld it to the end of his solid (shortened) repair section.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:04 pm
by edd
I wonder if any of you can help me again.

Just about to put a new passengers side sill in comprising of boxing plate, outersill and undersill. (i think thats what their called)

looking at the repair pannels the boxing plate and the outer sill dont look that tricky, but the undersill has me a bit confused as to thye best way to go about fitting it.

Having cleaned all the old undersill off sill area (allways a fun job) i noticed the row of spot welds that join the floor to the inner step. If i cut out and but weld in the new undersill whats the best way to weld the inner step to the floor? (i guess it is bes to seamweld the inside).

Would it be advisable to cut the old undersill back flush with the inner step and lap joint the repair pannel overt the top (using weldthrough primer in the overl;ap. This would save allot of work (I think!) as i shouldnt have to drill out the floor to inner step spotwelds.

This has been as counfusing to write as it has been to think about as it seems such an odd sill structure.

As this is my first restoration i wondered what is the best way as the books i have dont seem to be that clear.

Also (just to keep my parents happy as the cars on their drive in a makeshift tent at the mo) how long would it take a highly skilled novice like me to do the repare. I am thinking about 5 to 6 days is that realistic?

So many questionts but ill keep the rest till another day

Thanks once again for your time.

Edd

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:46 pm
by rayofleamington
to do the whole thing including boxing plate ...
as a novice that's a lot to start with, it depends how long your days are :?

The quicker way to get past the spotwelds is to peel the floor away from the step. With a big strong pair of mole grips you can roll it like the proverbial sardine tin that comes with a key. The spot welds will normally 'pop' as you lever with the mole grips but the stubborn ones can be gotten with the angle grinder.
If you do the sandwich leaving the old floor connected to the inner step, then it can be more difficult to line everything up with the boxing plate - however this is commonly done so I'm not saying it is a really bad idea.

The advantage to removing the old floor from the inner step is you can use a slightly wider inner sill which replaces the last few inches of the floor pan. The last few inches of the floorpan tend to rust away anyway, so it can be good to remove them if the car is already pretty rusted.

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:00 am
by edd
Cheers Ray, that seems a much better way.
as a novice that's a lot to start with
Well i was a novice untill 3 months ago when i bought a welder and have been welding ever since. (both tie plates, both chassie legs front cross member. rear chassie bit that the spring fixes to and lots of little holes to sort out)
The advantage to removing the old floor from the inner step is you can use a slightly wider inner sill which replaces the last few inches of the floor pan
shurely the inner sill stays the same size? whichever method. Though i can understand the bennifits of removing the floor.
Re-make the drain hole to allow draining!
whats the best way of doing this. i would like to get the drains like they were origonaly if posible. I am planning to cut a slit and then dress the metal into shape. Its this the best way?

One final point. The car is a shell and is on its side on tyers at the moment while i finnish fitting teh center x member. is it best to do the sills with the car back upright so it can all be supported on lots of axel stands to stop distortion. Or is it ok to do it on its side.

Sorry for so many questions but im working on the car allone and dont have anyone local that i can ask. (bar Rob Thomasson whos just down the road, but i dont like to keep bothering him)

Thanks once again

Edd

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:56 am
by Kevin
(bar Rob Thomasson whos just down the road, but i dont like to keep bothering him)
Thats what he is there for, unfortunatly for him, no really he will always help where possible, if you feel guilty you can always email him rather than phone, is there no one from the Essex branch who can help.

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:59 pm
by rayofleamington
shurely the inner sill stays the same size?
all the sill bits get called different things - I was referring to the sill piece that fits under the inner step. (this was originally part of the floor pressing). You can get these which have about 4" of the floor pan included - that was what I meant by wider though I'm sure you'll understand when you've seen one of the wider panels.

Many of the proffessional restorers use car roller rigs so it can't be too much of an issue to repair the floor with it on its side. For a convertible BE VERY CAREFUL!!
One thing about it - if you leave on as much of the strength as you can (eg leave the origninal boxing plate in place until the lower sill panels are done) then it is leass likely that the car will twist.
If the car is done on its wheels or axle stands - it is a good idea to distribute the weight on a number of jacks as well.

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:33 pm
by edd
Just wondering
One thing about it - if you leave on as much of the strength as you can (eg leave the origninal boxing plate in place until the lower sill panels are done) then it is leass likely that the car will twist.
To make it easier to work on i am now planning to fit the piece that fits under the inner step and the outer sill leaving the boxing plate inplace for strength. Then turn the car back uprignt and replace the boxing plate. Thus most of the welding can be done without to much hassle. also this would mean the sill structure would stay in the same place so the door fit should be spot on. Is it advisable to fit the doors before welding the outer sill to check (although i cant see it will make that much differance.).

Kevin
is there no one from the Essex branch who can help.
East london is closet to me but not having transport at the mo means i havent been able to attend. Hopefully when the cars on the road ill be able to get allong. (its a bit far by bike) :(

Cheers

Edd

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:06 pm
by rayofleamington
Is it advisable to fit the doors before welding the outer sill to check
I would do that on a 4 door otherwise the A or B post may have shifted. I always had the feeling a 2 door is inherently less likely to twist, but maybe someone will break the illusion for me.

If you put the doors in place before replacing the boxing plate then at least you have the opportunity to mess about with the alignment incase something looks wrong - It's a lot harder to start cutting and hacking after the job is finished, so it is always wise to check at various stages.
To be as safe as possible you should carefully measure everything including diagonally across the door holes. (not that I have ever bothered... )

Is the boxing plate really rotted? It is possible to replace just the bottom half of it! This is quicker and requires a lot less potential damage compared to removing the entire boxing plate (which is partly built into the door posts)

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:56 pm
by edd
Is the boxing plate really rotted?
Well the bits of it i can see are. Someone has cleverly plated over the whole lot but not bothered to put any rust protection or drain holes in.
would do that on a 4 door otherwise the A or B post may have shifted.
I have made up framework of angle inside the car that goes both accros the car and from the fron to the b piller. this should help but i will check with the doors as well.

It looks like ive a hecktic coulple of weeks ahead trying to get it all done.
:D
Thank you very much for your time.

Edd

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:49 pm
by edd
When fitting the boxing plate whats the best thing to do with the back wheelarch end. ive cout out all of the accessable old boxing plate but there still abit behind the wheelarch flange. Do i leave this? and weld the new one over the top? or try and cut it out and then fabricate pannels as the end of the new boxing plate is different.

Any help appreciated

Edd