Engine knocking

Post by **winger300** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:27 am

Back on the subject of my engine

I had a Morris specialist listen to my engine, and to him he said it sounded fine.

After 20 mins of driving, the oil light comes on, and there is a knocking sound from the engine under acceleration, it doesn't sound like pinking, but im not sure.

Is this common for morris engines? and is it ok to drive it like this?

Post by **57traveller** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:03 am

Assuming you have sufficient oil in the sump and your oil filter has been changed regularly it would seem that there is something wrong.
After you've driven a while the oil will warm up with a corresponding reduction in pressure. It looks like the pressure is dropping lower than the warning switch setting and your light is coming on. Does it then stay on permanently? This is what's causing the knocking it is not normal and no you shouldn't really be driving the car until the problem is sorted out. It's probably bearing noise.
Has the Morris "specialist" been with you when the light comes on with the accompanying knocking?

Post by **Kevin** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:49 am

Knocking sounds from the engine are not normal

The specialist who listened to your engine did he hear the noise and observe the oil light coming on (did he drive it) ?
Its a bit puzzling that the oil light comes on only after 20 mins driving if you had low oil pressure it should come on quicker than that, the light comes on when pressure is very low around 5lbs I think.
Knocking under acceleration sounds like big ends (a problem I have at the moment

it sounds similar to tapping a table top) can you accelerate though it and does it get worse the warmer the car becomes, mine you can hear on start up momentarily and after a couple of minutes running you can hear it at certain revs becoming more noticible with driving, I do not have my oil light coming on while driving.
Pinking is far more of a tinkling sound noticed more on going up hills and under load in a high gear (20 mph in top) whearas big end knock is much louder and will happen even when going down hill under acceleration, or by slowly increasing the revs you will hear it start and then it will quiten down as the revs increase ( the load alters ) you will also hear it by blipping the throttle at tickover when warm.
What exactly does yours do and sound like.

Post by **Cam** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:44 am

Also, what oil are you using and when was the last time it was changed??

Post by **winger300** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:10 pm

Yes, the knocking is as you describe "tapping on the table top" but maybe more metalic sounding. The oil light first comes on whilst idle when the engine is warm, turns off during low revs, and on again under hard acceleration. After a while of doing this it is on constantly.

The knocking sound is mostly under light acceleration, up hills and under load it isn't heard so much. The engine does leak a little oil, but a very small amount and there is plenty in the sump. A bottle of 20/50 grade oil came with the car so i assume this is what the previous owner used. I have no idea when the oil filter was replaced.

When motorway driving, the car will cruise at 65mph without knocking, but under a small amount of acceleration at this speed it can be heard.

Post by **ColinP** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:31 am

Winger,

Which Oil Warning Light comes on? On some models there are two - one for low pressure, one for high (i.e. filter blocked!)

If the light's coming on with the engine idling, and you get a "rumble" I'd suggest that the crankshaft bearings and big ends are close to the end.
If the light comes on when the engine is at high revs, then I'd suspect the filter (the oil pump should be giving higher pressure/flow with higher engine speeds).

I'd stongly suggest changing the engine oil (get a reasonable brand 20W/50) and the oil filter at the same time. The condition of the oil may give you a clue as to what's happening inside the engine.

Clear light golden = new oil
Dark with no bits = used oil (but probably ok)
Dark with white lumpy bits (emulsion) = there's water getting into the oil (a small amount is normal if you do a lot of short journeys - or vey old oil) otherwise check the radiator water level - this could be a new head gasket.

If the oil light comes on at idle (after the above) you could try a thicker oil (I don't think there's a thicker multigrade, but try SAE 40). If the symptoms disappear then, it's most likely wear in the big ends/crank bearings - the clearance in these is responsible for most of the back pressure in the oil system.

Luck,

Colin
anything with metal bits in = trouble.

Post by **Kevin** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:16 am

Anything with metal bits in it, So Colin you have seen my engine then.
Winger if you change the filter check you still have the large support washer that goes on the top of the spring as mine was missing, the car had just been serviced when I got it and a couple of months later when my noises started I found that the washer was missing which means the filter is sitting to low and not doing its job, I actually changed mine for a mini srew on type and when removed the engine side of the housing had a load of metal bits which were running around the engine as the filter had not removed them, although the engine must have been getting near its expiry date this only accelerated things (just looked it up its called the filter pressure plate)
It does sound like your engine is starting to go although not as bad as mine, I have managed to get a few hundred miles gentle driving out of it although now I only use it for club nights and local shows and a repacement is the autumn/winter project with a few other bits.
Mine will also still cruise as normal its just that the noise is now a bit hair rasing

Post by **winger300** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:20 pm

i don't actually know how to remove the oil filter.

Will i need to drain the sump first? Im assuming i have the old bolt on type.

Maybe i should leave this till i have the haynes manual

Post by **Kevin** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:05 pm

There are plenty of mauuals on ebay for the moggie, a quick look will reveal all if you still have the outer taper cover it is the original single bolt type if you remove it a word of caution when replacing it make sure the rubber sealing ring goes home properly otherwise you will have a nice leak, if you have a later mini style filter it will be the throw away canister type and is a different shape, when you look you cant miss the difference, if you want to see what the original should look like have a look on Charles Wares website.
http://www.morrisminor.org.uk/

Post by **winger300** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:17 pm

thanks for the tips guys.

It is a bolt on type. So i just undo the bolt at the bottom and pull it all off right?

Looking through the box of spares that came with the car i have in fact got a replacement paper filter, and that rubber pressure plate, and the rubber seal, so should i just go ahead and do an oil change/filter replacement?

What order should i do things?

Post by **rayofleamington** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:18 pm

getting noisy after 20 mins is very normal for a noisy engine.
my 71 saloon makes a deafening racket when the oil has warmed up and gone a bit thinner.

the oil light coming on at tickover is not good but can be a sign of cheap oil. The engine life can be extended if you are capable of replacing the big ends, and rocker shaft if it is worn.
That will reduce the noise and also stop the oil pressure dropping.

Oil light coming on under acceleration - If it really has a pressure problem at higher revs, something serious is wrong (or soon will be!!)

Post by **Kevin** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:33 pm

Warm the car up, and !st remove the sump bolt on one corner making sure you have something to catch it in or if not just get one of the drain cans from Halfrauds, then deal with the oil filter, once you have released the bolt it will undo by hand, it takes a few turns and be careful when it comes off that you do not spill the oil over yourself have the container underneath, clean everthing up then look in the groove where the filter housing bolts up to an you will see the old seal ring if it has not come out, to position the new one smear it with oil so that it sticks in place, and when replacing the housing & filter make sure it goes home centrally you can do most of it by hand, when that is done put the sump bolt back in and start to put some oil in, do check before you drive off that there are no leaks, I have managed to forget to put back the dipstick before now.

Post by **winger300** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:49 pm

should the outer paper of the filter be removed?

I've taken off the oil filter, the oil was really dark, but also completly clean, without any bits in it whatsoever.

It doesn't appear to have a seal though, but wasn't leaking before i took it off.

It also seems to be missing the seal and washer that goes under the pressure plate.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:02 pm

The seal and washer under the pressure plate are needed to make sure that the oil goes through the filter instead of through the hole in the pressure plate and straight round the outside of the filter without being filtered!! That's a common finding, as the reassembly needs a bit of thought - you could do with getting the missing bits soonish.

The housing seal is not easy to see as it will be pushed right into its groove. Poke about lightly with an electrical screwdriver and if you can feel a metalic scraping at the end of the groove, then there is no seal. If it feels a little squidgy, that'll be an old seal in the groove. A little careful playing with the screwdriver will get it out.

Post by **winger300** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:40 pm

ok, i found them in the oil bucket

I had to swish my hand about in the oil. Im not sure if i disliked or enjoyed the experience

Post by **Cam** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 1:43 am

Im not sure if i disliked or enjoyed the experience

You loved it and you know it!!

Post by **ColinP** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:33 am

Well done Winger!

First time I changed the oil filter/engine oil I realised I was mising the spring. So, I completed the job (thinking I'll get another one in the week - I need the car to get to work), then discovered the spring in the oil drainer can....
That's when I discovered that it's very easy to change the oil filter without draining the engine oil. If you're really careful you can also avoid the armful of oil from the filter bolt! (only done that once).

Luck,

Colin

Post by **winger300** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 10:05 pm

I changed the oil, and the new filter has really helped make the engine run smoother. The oil light now takes a lot longer to come on, and its only at low revs 20-30mph in 4th gear, it flickers on and off.

Thats when using a fairly cheap 20/50 oil. I'd imagine something like Castrol would help.

The rubber seal around the top of the oil filter can was definately missing, so i imagine that wasn't helping matters.

Post by **ColinP** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:39 am

Well done,

I've not changed the oil filter seal myself - once there's one in there (and it's in good condition) it seems to last a few changes. My Metro (long ago) had a spin on filter and I managed to fit two oil seals (which then leaked oil everywhere), emptying the sump.

After that the oil light performed just as you describe.

I think that the problem looks like worn main bearings - unfortunately the cure for that is obvious, but not a 5 minute job.

What was the oil like that you drained out?
At this stage, I'd guess that the quality of the oil won't make a lot of difference (I guess that the Castrol might keep its viscosity longer), if you change it regularly that's better than putting in a quality oil and leaving it forever...

Colin

Post by **Kevin** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:40 am

Winger if the oil change has helped a bit and put the expected rebuild time a bit futher away, try putting in some Wynns this can help before the engine becomes too far gone it helped my engine for a while although mine sounds further up the wear factor scale than yours.