Morris Minor Owners Club

Righto, the post christmas update!

I have all the nearside sill sections either tacked or clamped in place, all appears to line up nicely, however I think the rear floor edge panel could do with being trimmed down a bit so it doesnt overlap the new floor section too much (see photo), what do you lot think??
Ive also started the fiddly areas such as C pillars and wing mounting faces.

cheers,
YG

This shows the rear floor edge panel and spring hanger plate, is the overlap onto the floor pan too much? http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u118 ... n08001.jpg

http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u118 ... n08001.jpg
http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u118 ... rJan08.jpg
http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u118 ... n08002.jpg
http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u118 ... n08003.jpg
http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u118 ... nJan08.jpg
http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u118 ... n08002.jpg

I would go with it - as long as you weld both seams it will make a really strong structure. The work looks excellent - bit surprised you are not renewing the suspension cross-member at the same time?

Unless I am missing something in pic three you are welding a nice new front spring mount to rusty floor metal? I agree with the comment that it appears a missed opportunity to fit a new centre cross member too.
Mind you it isa rotten job.

youngun wrote:Righto, the post christmas update!
-snip-
This shows the rear floor edge panel and spring hanger plate, is the overlap onto the floor pan too much? -snip-

First of all, keep up the great work! I agree with Willie, but I'm sure you're going to replace the bit of rusty floor he mentioned with new steel once the front hanger plate in securely welded to all the other panels.

I would cut the floor edge panel to fit and butt weld it to the floor pan/sill, if you can- makes a much neater job and with no overlapped metal that is one less moisture and future rust trap.

In general, I think its best to only overlap where the car was originally overlapped. Butt weld the rest, which judging from the high quality of your welding, i'm sure you can do that. Butt welding enables you to paint both sides of the new piece and protect it, wheras with an overlap, there will allways be a hidden sandwich where bare metal (from the weld heat affected zone) can start to rust unseen.

Aye - but the overlapped section will be so much stronger - and can always drill some holes in the upper surface and inject waxoyl!

I will probably cut it so its flush with the Sill step.

I have heard about the cross member being a complete B******, so i have the 2 repair sections for it, im going to cut back as far as needs be as the outer edges of the cross member have started to delaminate. So ill be left with the solid centre of the old cross member, and 2 new sections on either side welded on. I dont think i have the skills or patience to replace the whole thing, considering how critical it is!

Oh and that rusty bit of holed metal that the spring hanger is against will be going, im replacing that whole area up to the new rear spring hanger. Im just waiting to do it when the car is on its side to make access easier.....working underneath then car is a killer on my neck, back and arms, despite having a proper car crawler!

Crikey -you've done well underneath - I assumed it was on it's side!!

bmcecosse wrote:Aye - but the overlapped section will be so much stronger - and can always drill some holes in the upper surface and inject waxoyl!

Its going to be tricky to drill just the top portion in the overlap without damaging the lower piece, and with all the extra effort of carefuly drilling holes etc, it will just be easier and a neater job to butt weld rather than overlap. plus, the overlap is going to be tight, so wax may not get in everywhere leading to bare metal welded sandwich.

All you need is a pin hole and it will start rusting. MOT garages don;t overlap for strength- purely for convenience and therefore profit.

At the end of the day, its up to the individual, but the college resto course I'm on teach you to butt weld rather than lap this type of repair.

All you need is a pin hole and it will start rusting. MOT garages don;t overlap for strength- purely for convenience and therefore profit.

Bit unfair John, an MOT repair is just that, they are not in business to 'restore' cars. The two are completely different animals the latter attracting a much higher cost.
I'd be tempted on this panel to cut back to 10mm over the floor pan edge, punch out or drill some 8mm holes and plug to the folded return of the inner sill, then seam the edge. An overlap (sensible size) will add strength as it can be double welded. Butt welding is a good idea in most applications but on floors the extra strength offered is in my view a bonus. If your prep is good i.e clean back to bare metal,and galve spray both/all surfaces to be welded then wire brush to clean steel the weld then apply galve or zinc spray to this then the joint should last a long time.

That's my view - I can't see how much overlap there is from the picture - obviously a sensible amount only is wise - but a butt join in the middle of the floor is just going to flap up and down with no real strength

At the moment the overlap is about 3 inches worth. If i were to overlap id probably cut that down to about half an inch or maybe 3/4.

The butt join of the floor edge panel to the floor will not "flap around" as its also welded to the inner sill close to where it meets the floor if it was butt welded.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one but all the good advice i've heard (from the resto course and qualified welder/ fabricators I know who restore cars for fun) is that its better to butt weld repairs and keep one skin where the car was originally one skin.

Double skin sections where originally there was one skin are not good for the reasons i have stated.

Jonathon- I'm not criticising MOT garages for doing economic repairs that keep the car on the road for a bit longer cheaply. My point is that these overlap style repairs are not the best choice for a full high quality resto- such as Youngun is very capably carrying out.

I will confess to having done some small laps on the traveller - I didn't know better at the time, but now, its "no butts itas gotta be butt welded" ;-).

These are not overlap panels really, they merely offer a greater area of coverage to an area known for spreading rust. They cannot replicate the original especially on the floor as the pan was a single pressing, so sections are the only economical way to go. To create a similar authentic look to a repaired car a butt joint is fine where the strength is not an issue, however say on these floor edge panels,pans 1/4 repairs boot lid and door repairs a joggled or slightly lapped joint should be favoured.
The panels are therefore fine to use on a 'full high quality resto' as they offer the user the choice of lap or butt welding, by simple trimming. In the Mot environment, this choice is still available, and I'm sure that if you specify how you would like the job carried out most Stations would oblige. Infact they make less profit by overlapping rather than butt welding, so I still feel the comment is unfounded.

"Infact they make less profit by overlapping rather than butt welding, so I still feel the comment is unfounded. "

Oh, come on Jonathon! ;-) You know that its easier and quicker to do a lap repair because the panel does not have to be cut accurately to fit the hole.- it just has to overlap. Therefore less time spent fitting it, therefore it is cheaper for the MOT garage (and owner) thats why its done like that- but a false economy in the long run.

The big danger with overlapping these panels rather than cutting accurately and butting them up is that if you, for instance , fit a new rear floor pan, a new spring hanger on plate and a rear floor edge sill panel and you have the same piece of rear floor on all three panels. Better to use the section from one (eg the spring hanger plate) and trim the floor and floor edge rear sill piece to fit, then butt weld these in. Less overlaps under the floor in an allready vulnerable area means much less chance for rust to re-occur.

The strength argument does not come into it because within a few inches of this potential overlap area you have the inner sill structure to weld to as well as the under seat box section.- all that structure gives strength allready.

If you eant to add more strength to the area, make a small box section and weld that in rather that double skinning.

We are getting seriously OTT here- Youngun- please do what you think is best and keep up the great work and keep the photos coming. By far my favourite posts on here are of Minors being restored- keep posting the resto pics!

John, were saying the same thing y'puddin Overlap= speedy repair= cheaper job to customer. Butt welding=time ans skill=more expense to customer. And I agree as I have already stated that large overlaps should be avoided.
Younggun has asked for opinions and he is welcome make what he wants from them. I don't think that informed opinion is OTT.
All I'd suggest toYG is that he should be a bit more ruthless with the removal of rusty steel. If its blowing through when weldind and you need to plus weld the hole then this area will be next years project as the area around a weld is most prone to rust. I'd also clean off all of the porous black primer before welding and spray with weld through zinc primer. Always clean up your welds (wirewheel or local shot blaster )will do, before applying a covering coat of zinc/galve or etc primer. And always top coat the repaired sections, do not be tempted to shultz on top of primer. Apart from this keep up the good work.

Yes, I agree, get rid of all the rusty steel! I think he will replace that bit behind the spring hanger plate. When I did that on the convertible project, the same thing happened, welding the plate in blew some holes in the under boor floor, after that, I cut out the rot at the top and welded a new piece in.

I thought we were going a bit off the topic (ott) sorry, not over the top

Just shows how internet communications can be mis interpreted

I have cut the real floor edge panel so that it is flush with the inner sill step, a 1/4 overlap has been left on the edge nearest the cross-member for extra strength. Pics to follow!!

That sounds good. Its fine IMHO to overlap where the car was originally overlapped, such as floor where it meets inner sill step flange and floor where it meets cross member.