Morris Minor Owners Club

The commonly accepted way of installing a Fiat Engine into a minor is actually, as engine-swaps go, quite basic. The engine can be squished in with only moderate fabrication required (i.e. the front crossmember chop, and rear crossmember replacement).

This installation has its plus points. It is relatively easy, can be done fairly cheaply and there are a large number of kits for this conversion out there.

However, it also means you have an engine that sits very close to the front panel, making radiator and fan accomodation difficult. Space is so tight that accomodating an adequately sized radiator and fan is difficult. Having the engine, which is slightly heavier than an A-Series closer to the front of the car also makes weight distribution a little on the front-heavy side.

Our solution, which is a little more radical, is to mount the engine further back by trimming the bulkhead. The steering rack also has to be moved to accomodate this procedure. This allows the engine to be mounted in almost the perfect place for weight distribution. The fact that the battery has to be relocated (usually to the boot) enhances this improvement. In addition to this, as large a radiator and fan as is desired can be fitted, sufficient for any state of tune. Our own car using this installation technique produces 170HP at the flywheel, and yet is perfectly well cooled by the huge electric fan, and sherpa van radiator we use.

Admittedly, this is an expensive undertaking, especially when compared to the commonly accepted techniques used. I feel, however, that it results in a superior finished product, with much sweeter handling characteristics.

I would be interested to know if anyone else here has tried other ways of fitting the Fiat Engine to a minor.

can i ask how you moved the steering rack? sounds like an excellent thing to do it htis way however there is alot more work involved. Not always a bad thing though.
cheers,michael.

Admittedly, this is an expensive undertaking, especially when compared to the commonly accepted techniques used. I feel, however, that it results in a superior finished product, with much sweeter handling characteristics.

I dont think there will be many who would be prepared to go down this route as the Fiat engine conversion is not done so often nowadays due to shortages of engines, and the future engine mods are going towards Ford Zetecs.

One reason the Fiat engine was / is so popular was that it was one of the few engines that actually fits in the engine bay without major cutting and was available with 5 speed box. In the 80`s it was an advanced engine and gearbox option.

The problem fitting other engines has always been the bulkhead and steering rack. I am very interested in your solution to moving the rack.

I seriously looked at how to over come the steering rack problem and I mean I had Minor stripped down ready to cut. I came to the following conclusions:

1) It was too much work and not worth the effort. I may as well put on a "real" double wishbone set up. I say "real" because the Minor is effectivley a double wishbone but I mean with ball joints and wishbones.

2) If I was to move the rack rearwards then new steering arms would be required. The longer arms would slow down the steering so this would need a quick rack.

3) Moving the rack up was the only probable option. Care would be needed to avoid bump steer. Bent arms or arms mounted in different places ie further up would be required. I looked at Marina uprights but cant remember if these were better.

4) Move the rack down and forward so it goes under the sump or in front of the engine. Again getting steering arms on the upright was the problem. The steering arms do not have to be the Minor ones, it is possible to use two pieces of steel plate and have a spherical bearing mounted in double shear.

5) I even looked at making my own uprights with a dropped spindle position (instant lowering without reducing travel) and this would enable me to put steering arms where I wanted and have a front mounted rack.

In the end I left the steering rack where it was and put effort into getting the engine low and far back. This involved a lot of sump work. I also strengthened the front end around the suspension mounts, put effort into getting all weight down and back (Heater mounted in passenger foot well, wiper motor inside the car and low, coil low on inner wing, battery in the rear, washer bottle in the rear and low etc, wiring low off the bulkhead) I also worked at getting a lot of rear axle movement with soft springs.

It handled well and I won a few motor club events against modern machinery.

Our rack-moving resulted in a wider turning circle but no other ill effects. Bump steer is nonexistent, and the quickness of the rack has been preserved.

It is a sad fact that the fiat conversion is becoming obsolete. The ford conversion will likely become the new staple in days to come. I don't know much about the ford engine. Isnt it heavier than a fiat TC? If it is, then bulkhead chopping would be the only way to preserve anywhere near decent weight distribution.

The Duratec engine could also be a potential swap in the distant future. It is far easier to tune than the good old Zetec (so the Burton catelogue tells me!), even if you have to put up with all that injection equipment.

The Zetec conversion requires modification of the front cross member( we replace it with our own design) and the sectioning of the bulkhead X member, the Type 9 bellhousing is modified in a similar way to the Fiat and K series conversions.
Cannot remember the weight of the Zetec, and it depends on which one you choose. The earlier ones as found in the Escort and Mondeo are heavy lumps, but the ones we supply are the lightweight version as found in the Focus.It also has better water cooling and was essentially designed by Ford as a basis for the WRC Focus. It is largley acknowledged that the Zetec is a much better and stronger engine than the Duratec and is very easy to tune. Standard Focus 2 ltr engines are 140bhp, almost 30bhp more than the Fiat 2ltr. Throttle bodies and aftermarket Ecu's will see 165bhp, add cams for 175bhp and a ported head for 200bhp. This is all achieved with standard internals. Go fo supercharging and an easy 260bhp is available and over 400 for those not challenged by the size of their wallet.
The injection system is no problem and once mapped should not give any reliability issues. The benefit of the more modern Zetec or K series is that they give massive performance with economy( 185bhp K series giving an average of 40mpg and 50 on economy runs), something the Fiat will never achieve, despite being a lovely torquey motor.
As with most engine conversions and to a degree suspension mods, its a game of compromise. If building a full custom minor, or replica then you have the luxury of getting the optimum balance and handling, but if keeping the essence of the minor, ie using the original chassis and floorpan then a compromise it will need to be. This makes them no less a car, but they will have short comings over a bespoke design. Having said that a 185bhp K powered trav, capable of 135mph, 0-60 in 6 secs 0-100-0 in 23 secs and 45mpg doesn't seem too much of a compromise to me.

Having said that a 185bhp K powered trav, capable of 135mph, 0-60 in 6 secs 0-100-0 in 23 secs and 45mpg doesn't seem too much of a compromise to me.

Dont know if I could handle that sort of performance

I have to agree that the effort involved installing versus the improvements to be gained is a high consideration. Installing the FIAT twin cam is relatively simple but still requires considerable effort for the home mechanic with a moderate degree of fabrication / engineering skill / experience. Making it more complicated has to be balanced against what improvement is to be gained. Improving weight distribution would certainly help but further improving the suspension set up would probably be higher up my wish list.

In the case of the FIAT engine, and I speak as a fan of the twincam having got one myself, it really is old now and wouldn't be my engine of choice if I was starting again. Any FIAT engine would need a rebuild these days and the modern motors have overtaken it in the power stakes.

With regards to cooling, my engine is installed in the "standard" twin cam fashion and pushes around 180 BHP at the flywheel without any issues in cooling. Big Kenlowe, Alfa 2600 rad, 13 row oil cooler and it's fine. In fact at the moment I struggle to get it up to a decent operating temperature.

Also if you are going to do a whole lot of fabrication then why not move to a V8.

My thoughts.

Regards,
Wal

hmmm saw a nice honda nsx engine on e-bay the other day ofr £600......had me thinking....on the steering issue I moved my rack to the inside of the car and therefor lifting it up out of the way of the gearbox I am using I used wolseley uprights and steering arms and lenghtened my rack by a few inches. Havnt done a roadtest yet as car still isnt running legally but it steers nicely around the yard so fingers crossed.
cheers, michael.

I've often wondered about using the Wolseley steering arms. finding some may be a problem.

Hello Matt,

I don't believe that by moving the rack you have not upset the steering geometry. Bump steer tends to be a factor of relative height but moving the rack fore and aft will upset the Ackerman angles and so upset the wheel alignment on a curve.
Certainly the Wolseley or Riley arms are located (I think higher on the uprights) but I'm not sure that that will help. What I do know is I once fitted a Wolseley upright to a Minor thinking they were the same and the steering felt very strange and wandered horribly. I then noticed the different steering arm location.

Alec

I have never been much of a fan of the K series. I'm probably just biased 'cos of the terrible head gasket reputation. Although, I am not convinced this isnt unfounded. A friend of mine owned a generic Rover gti (it was so boring I cant remember what sort it was) that repeatedly ate head gaskets until he got bored with the whole car, and had it crushed.

The ford engine, however, intrigues me. As you say, the power potential is great. I have plans for my own moggy, and just can't decide what engine to go for.

As for goemetry changes, if we have changed its geometry for the worse, we can't tell. It feels perfect. Handling is astonishing. The only problem with the car is that it is a little tail happy. I blame the amount of power it has. The car belongs to my father, and I keep trying to persuade him to get a 5 link rear set up fitted, as we reckon this may help cure the problem. He reckons it would be expensive, though, so isnt very keen.

The K series was a sensational engine. Modern design, superb, weight (16Kilo less than the A series) power/economy. Unfortunately the British industry disease of how to ruin a good product reared it ugly head and corners were cut, hence the headgasket and dowel problems. The K performance was nothing short of stunning even in 1.1 Liter guise, so I'd say that the Gti must have been pretty poorly to be boring.
The Zetec is great as it offers reliability loads of power. More weight than the A series but lighter than the Fiat in the last Focus version. Cheap upgrades and availability of parts plus a bespoke fitting kit already designed for fitting into a Minor , its a no brainer descision.
I'd probably suggest that if you have improved the front end geometry and hence grip then you will be showing up the shortfall in the rear leaf spring set up.
When we designed the front coil over kit we were amazed at the grip it offered and dismayed as to the limitations of the rear end despite turreted dampers and a triangulated radius arm kit. This is why we designed a bespoke 5 and 6 link kit, which has restored the balance of the car and offered the ultimate means of location and adjustability. If you would like some pics Matt please PM me.

I didnt know the K series was so light. Is there any way of solving said gasket problems?

The head gasket issues are solved, with a new multiplate version from the turbo, and a return to steel head dowels rather than plastic.There is also a new ladder plate to increase rigidity.
Engines are no longer available new, but we bought some of the last 160bhp VVC engines and a turbocharged version for which we have had a manifold and system built. These are now surplus items( unless someone specifies a K series over the new Zetec conversion) I'll PM you Matt with prices and pics if interested.

From what I've heard, the head gasket isn't such an issue in the Minor as there's more air circulating around the engine, so it runs cooler.
Perhaps it's not the engine that's the problem, but the cars it was fitted to.
It wouldn't have been my choice to power a 4x4, but in a light car like the Minor it would be fine.
Perhaps if Rover had reintroduced the Minor and given it K-power they might not have gone bust!

What about Mazda MX-5 engine- that looks like it might fit. Anyone tried it?

I was always keen to see someone put a honda VTEC into a minor. Lots of revs. I reckong one would fit, since I've seen people fit one into a mini. If it fits in one of those, a moggy should be no problem.

If you can make it RWD!

It must be possible, after all, didnt they use VTECs in inline configuration on those horrid little Honda 4X4s?