Morris Minor Owners Club

Okay, I'm aware there are several threads, and many competing opinions about the question of converting dampers/shocks from the original lever model to modern telescoping style.

Searching the boards here I've seen many people say the old style is perfectly okay unless you're going for seriously high performance. Others say it's a good idea to replace the front, but the rear may as well be left, and still others say exactly the reverse. Some say the rear conversion is not worth doing unless you cut holes in the boot floor and make turrets for vertical telescope shocks. Others are not so fastidious. On the front, some prefer models which connect to the original dampers, some don't; in any case, the limited information available online about the kits never seems to mention this matter. Almost everyone recomends anti-roll bars.

Many people say certain brands of conversion kit are not worth considering, but others are, but no one seems willing to say which brands fall into which category. And the sources I have access to (overseas here, and far from Minor heaven) seem all to have the same conversion kits, as near as I can tell; most don't actually say who has manufactured them.

My original dampers are in a bad way, and refilling didn't work. At least two of them are apparently shot. One of my leaf springs is dead now, too, so I'm working on all this at once. My Minor drives on miserably maintained roads, so I'm assuming it's better to upgrade, but I'm still considering the possibility of just replacing with reconditioned lever dampers.

Anyone have any good pointers on how to choose among damper conversion kits? Or just more opinions?

Hi, well to give you an opinion on my own experience gleaned from the rear dampers as this is where most movement comes from.
My previous saloon had a tele conversion fitted based on the technical tips version which replaced the standard levers with mini front teles and is quite a simple conversion as they fit the original mountings with the use of a spacer and the original spring mounting is turned upside down with a couple of extra holes drilled in them to allow for different mounting angles.
The improvement was very noticeable as my local roads are full of speed humps and it made going over them far better and also made the car more stable when going through bends etc and seemed to tighten the whole car up ata the rear end.
Personally I wouldnt do just the fronts as the weakness is more at the rear end and just doing the fronts would make it worse.
The kits with the mounting section that fits to the floor have been known to crack and damage the rear floor causing splits which is why the turreted version (if you go down that route) is a far better engineered version.
I know my method is not perfect as the dampers are not mounted at the optimum angle but I found the improvement more than worthwhile with increased comfort and the advantage is that they can be returned to standard if you wish.
I do have some photos of them on the car send me a pm if you would like to see how they are fitted.
As a matter of interest the current owner of the car says the car drives better that others they tried before they bought mine.

A front anti roll bar? Very noticeable improvement and well worth fitting.
Front telescopics, leave till last. Rear telescopics, a great improvement
and Kevins type of fitting has been touted in the clubs technical data for a very long time. It does not allow for the full possible deflection of the dampers but is still a geat improvement. The 'turreted' kits are to allow
for the correct deflection. The trouble with my Owen Burton kit which used an additional cross member to supply the top mounting was that the cross member was not robust enough which caused it to snap in half.
I have reverted to a reconn'ed pair of the original lever arm dampers
which, with radial ply tyres, five leaf rear springs, and a front anti roll bar give me a car which is enjoyable to drive.

Firstly I'd suggest that you drive at least two cars with the same kits fitted, and do this for all of the kits that are available. What might be good for one persons driving style might be at odds with another.
We have designed our kits as 'systems' which offer a balanced approach to modifying your suspension, and you must remember that which ever you change will have a reaction on the other.
Its our experience that a good 'road'damper set up negates the need for an anti roll bar. infact we remove loads of these kits as they corrupt the front end geometry. Okay if you set up the front end again having fitted it, but how many owners do this.
Willie is correct in his appraisal of the rear turreted system.
Regarding manufacturers, you have the old Owen Burton kits which are now supplied via ESM to the public and trade, C.S Autoclassics (Opus car company) who designed and manufactured the original Series 111 kits for C.Ware, then progressed to producing his own Series 1V kits, C. Ware MMC who produce their own version of the original Series 111, plus (and I choose my words carefully here) a poor copy of our turreted rear damper kit. And us, who design and manufacture our own kits, selling to both trade and public.
If I were in your position talk to each respective manufacturer and learn about the products,read some suspension books to familiarise yourself with the terminology and reasons as to how and why certain systems work and other don't, then as said before try out a demo vehicle, and see which set up meets your own personal requirements

Yes, well, it would of course be nice to be able to do that kind of hands-on research, but I live an ocean and a continent away from the land of plentiful Minors. In the five years I've owned mine, I have seen exactly three others running in my area, one of which was only because I was buying a used steering wheel from its owner. The one Minor registry site I've seen lists four or five Minors within a hundred miles of me. So comparisons of that kind are unlikely to be practicable.

This forum is about the only good source I have for informed opinion on the matter, apart from the parts suppliers themselves.

The précis of the manufacturers is useful, but, given my position, what I'm looking for is a discussion of the relative merits of the different manufacturers, as jonathon has given just a hint of. Discussion via pm is welcomed if you're worried about being seen to disparage a given system. Any opinions on the Owen Burton kits themselves, which seem to be available both from ESM, my usual British supplier, and from my US sources?

While we're at it, any opinions on the Spax adjustables? I don't particularly see why they'd be necessary. What are the advantages of adjustable dampers?

jonathon wrote:Its our experience that a good 'road'damper set up negates the need for an anti roll bar. infact we remove loads of these kits as they corrupt the front end geometry. Okay if you set up the front end again having fitted it, but how many owners do this.

Interesting. What do you mean by "set up the front end again having fitted it"?

Ahh, sorry , didn't look at where you were based, so appreciate your limited availability to test.
I will PM you to give you my frank opinion of the kits available.
The roll bar when fitted puts the bottom arms under tension this alters the caster and KPI angles, as the front tie bar is forced into a different position. Therefore you need to re set these angles.
The idea of adjustables is to give the customer more choice in the damping rate. Non adjustables, if they are designed for the actual vehicle and not taken from another source just because they happen to fit ,should be fine, but as we all drive in different ways and demands therefore are varied then the adjustables offer fine tuning.

RCBOWMAN, the Minor is exceptional insofar as due to its standard
suspension design the addition of a front anti roll bar improves the car geatly. It does NOT increase the understeer which would be the normal reaction. Jonathons mods are designed as a whole and when fitted remove this anomily so the roll bar becomes less desireable. It boils down to how far you wish to go with the modifications, most of us cannot afford to go the whole hog so it is a question of what gives the best improvement for the least amount of money provided that the mods are properly made in the first place. My Owen Burton rear telescopics kit made a great improvement but snapped in half, I also had one of his anti roll bar kits which also snapped in half! This was on an untuned road going Minor. I have just fitted Jonathons disc brake kit and it is worth every penny.

Since I can't bring the car in to JLH (or any other specialist) I'm looking at what's best to do by myself. Money is certainly an issue, but I'm looking to do this right, within my own abilities.

The standard bolt-on rear kits (Owen Burton, I guess, or perhaps several models?) seem to present some problems, and there are stories of their tearing up floor panels, or breaking as Willie just said. As I understand it, there is a pair of welds recommended on those for extra strength beyond the bolts; does anyone know if this fixes the problems some have encountered with them? Or is the problem just lack of strength in the crossmember and/or the floor where it's bolted? If the latter, it strikes me some reinforcement, just by drilling and laying in an extra bar of metal, or including some backing metal on the inside of the car, could help. I am up to a certain level of metalwork, perhaps including welding (with oxy-acetylene) as long as it's not too near the painted surface.

The important fact with dampers is that they work on displacement of oil through valves. Therefore they need to move as much as possible which ideally means that as much wheel movement should be translated into damper movement as possible. The way they are mounted determines this.

I have never fitted a front ARB to my cars, but the suspension was quite modified in other ways (more negative camber and increased wheel rate). I always suffered with under steer when really going fast and an ARB would have increased this.

However I have no experience of fitting an ARB on an otherwise standard suspension.

John

From my experience with the OB kit there is no way that the boot floor
should be used to take the increased loading, I certainly welded the extreme ends of the new support beam to the chassis in order to make a solid job. Unfortunately, as my experience proved, the basic design was not robust enough. It is fairly easy to remove the bottom mounting plates for the lever arm dampers, turn them upside down and swop them over to the opposite side of the axle. You can then mount teles on
there and use the original top pivots as the top mounts. This is not an ideal layout but is still an improvement and is using the original strength
mountings so failure is unlikely. As I said earlier a front anti roll bar fitted to a Minor with NO OTHER FRONT SUSPENSION MODS is very
effective. For the above teles mod I could send you the details from the technical manual if you wish?

Willie wrote:For the above teles mod I could send you the details from the technical manual if you wish?

This is the MMOC tech manual? I'd love to see it. I am considering getting a membership just for that.

On the OB kit - I take it it's just a piece of relatively thick pressed steel sheet with holes punched in appropriate places. Depending how it all fits together, it might be reinforced with just another bar of metal fitted between it and the floor (with, again, reinforcements on the inside, since that floor metal is definitely way too thin to attach anything important to). Such a reinforcement, if it's not necessary that it be welded on over its length or any such nastiness, would be relatively easy.

I look forward to any information on details of the way any system fits, including the JLH turrets (I'm a bit intimidated by the prospect of trying to do that job, but I'm still considering it), the OB crossbar, or the simple replacements.

The top mount on the OB kit is a 'U' section bar but in places there is just not enough 'U' on it!! Have sent you a private message re the page
(well, I think I have as it is not appearing in my 'sent' box!

i can pass on my experience of long term use (5 years/ 6000miles) of the angled under the floor spax (mini) adjustable setup. After 4 years the floor under the bolt holes was literally shattered and prior to that i had to repair the mounting member twice. This was solved by remaking the member out of stronger steel and welding in 4" square reinforcing/load speading plates above the bolt holes. since this work has been done the performance has been very good. In hindsight turreting and improved axle location (the angled kit supposedly reduces axle side movement) would be better. I had an anti roll bar that in my opinion does work but stiffened front suspension may be a better option. I thought that castor angle was set by the tie rods and since my arb floats in the lower arms i cannot see how the bar would affect this setting. Front tele dampers was not a good mod for me once again i feel a stiffer front is required to obtain full benefit.

thanks for the information and advice, everyone. This has been very helpful. Not that I've quite made my decision yet.

While I'm on the subject, anyone think there's anything wrong with replacing only one spring (leaf spring, that is)? My left spring has a broken leaf, and it's going to get worse, but those things are HEAVY when considering shipping across the Atlantic.

Yes, the car will not sit right, also one srping will be softer than the other. Replacing both springs will make a marked difference. Its well worth poly-bushing at the same time.

minor_hickup wrote:Its well worth poly-bushing at the same time.

"poly-bushing"?

rcbowman wrote:"poly-bushing"?

Replacing the rubber suspension bushes with ones made from polyurethane (a rubbery plastic).

See http://morrisminorspares.co.uk/shop/pro ... ts_id=2494

Ah. Thanks. I'll look into it.

Two other points I'd like to add about anti-roll bars.
1. When an individual front wheel meets a bump at speed an anti roll bar will increase the spring rate on that wheel.
2. In an ideal world a car should have it's suspension geometry altered after fitting an antiroll bar. The original geometry is set to provide optimum grip whilst the car is leaning into a bend. As the car leans so too does the wheel - except that the compression of the suspension effectively straightens up the wheel and provides the best angle for grip. If the compression of the suspension is limited (as an anti-roll will do) then the wheel angle is not optimum for a given cornering force.

That's a good explanation. At this point I'm planning on doing all this modification incrementally (not having the luxury of being able to take it to an expert who can do a fancy integrated revamp of the whole system). Perhaps I should wait until I've decided on whether I feel I need ARBs and come back to ask for more detail on how that geometry needs to be altered, and how difficult it is to do.