Oh no! Is engine siezed?

[badfelafel]

Over the last 2 weeks or so, since the Minor had its tappets adjusted, its been a bit noisier (up top, I thought).

Tonight I was coming home on the motorway (50mph happily, pulling strongly, but sounding tappety, though running really nicely) I thought I was too low on petrol to make exit no.2 so came off at exit no.1... and just after I pulled off, the engine conked out.

No problem thought I, just get some more petrol...

Sadly, it still wouldnt start. Sounded like starter was jammed, so rocked the car, wacked the starter etc. No joy.

RAC had a look, he reckons that he could turn the pointy end of the starter so it isnt jammed.

The oil has vanished! and with the car in gear he couldnt push it at all, so he reckoned that ITS SIEZED!! noooooooooooo!!!

Does it sound likely?

AM really annoyed, as have only been out a few times since it was in the garage, and havent checked the oil since it was in! I reckoned that the tappety noise was because he'd adjusted it (it made that noise from when I picked it up after).

Whats the prognosis, doc?

[Packedup]

Hmmm, engine won't turn, was being driven without oil.

It's siezed.

If you've been incredibly lucky, a new set of bottom end bearings may fix it, but chances are if it's still stuck solid after cooling down, the bores are unwell and the crank is toast.

The tappety noise was your conrods slapping around the crank as the oil film dried up - In future always pull over and check for teh source of such noises as soon as you start to hear them!

[badfelafel]

Thanks for advice That sounds complicated to me! Probably time for a new engine and/or gearbox if together!

Any other suggestions??? (please dont start with - you were lucky / its your own fault etc, as am very upset!)

Thanks all!

[bmcecosse]

First check - can the engine be turned over with the starting handle ? If not - try again with the clutch held down (in case the gearbox has somehow selected 2 gears at the same time) - the gearbox having been troublesome for a while. Still no go - it's seized. In which case - look urgently for another engine. You will never make anything of a seized engine without a complete rebuild. But there must have been signs of this happening - oil pressure light on ? I thought you had fitted an oil pressure gauge - was it showing good pressure ? And yes - you really should have been checking the oil pressure on a weekly basis - it doesn't just disappear overnight unles there is a very sudden and serious leak ? Did the 'Mini Centre' put the rocker cover back on ok - or has oil been pouring out there ? It's unlikely - but just have a look inside the rocker cover in case a rocker has come loose/or a valve dropped - something like that you can associate back to their work ?

[alex_holden]

Ouch! I wonder where all the oil went...

Time to start looking for another engine I suppose. You could rebuild the seized one but it'll take longer than swapping it.

[chickenjohn]

Sorry to hear about the engine troubles- running out of oil is one of the few things that will kill an A series engine. Need to check at least every week even on an apparently healthy engine.

Maybe you could change your babys speech bubble "the nearest place I can get some 20w50" ;-) (thats meant to cheer you up btw- a joke, not having a dig)

Other than that, I'd follow packed up's advice. top the oil up and see if it will turn- by hand, if so then drop the sump and look at the bearings- even if you get it running at this stage, plan to re-build the engine soon or get another one.

[bmcecosse]

Seizing up comes from the pistons/rings in the bores - not from the crankshaft. The bearings and crank will be worn and loose - not welded together! Lets hope it's something much more simple and easily fixed.

[badfelafel]

Thanks everyone.

Am most annoyed at myself, as it was noisier from the moment I got it back from the garage and I assumed that was just its new noise.

Note to self - apply learning here - am a trainee lawyer, and what do we learn? "Never assume"... its repeated quite often. Funny how I didnt apply it to my lovely Minor!

Will have a go and see if its the gearbox, need to pick up a starting handle off ebay tho! However, suspect that if it was the gearbox, then the starter would have no problem turning it over:(

So, is this perhaps what really happened...
- noisy tappets due to oil starvation
- ran out of petrol coming off motorway
- whilst waiting for petrol to arrive, engine cools down and in doing so siezes

PS The RAC man was very nice - had been to a local Minor recently owned by an Aussie - said it was points that had let him down - a member of this board??

[Packedup]

So, is this perhaps what really happened...
- noisy tappets due to oil starvation

Noisy big ends due to oil starvation/ smacking into crank journals every stroke. Sounds very like very out of adjustment tappets.

- ran out of petrol coming off motorway
- whilst waiting for petrol to arrive, engine cools down and in doing so siezes

Combustion and sheer momentum kept the engine turning to a point, as soon as the clutch was pulled it went from a box of moving parts to a solid almalgamation of various metals.

Seems to me it was:
Oil pressure was lost quite rapidly (check for signs of oil coating the underside, engine bay etc)
Oil film broke down on crank bearings, causing knocking noises
Oil film on bores disappeared, causing engine to "tighten"
Car acted as a big flywheel keeping the engine from siezing, engine in the power band so just able to overcome internal friction for a short while
Engine speed slows when you pulled off, lower car and engine speed led to frictional losses overcoming available power, engine dies

It is possible a new set of bottom end shells would see it live again (though for how long is an unknown) depending on just how much damage was done to the crank and bores. But you're looking at a total rebuild unless you're luckier than Mr Luck McLucky, winner of the luckiest luckster award (only awarded to those who don't enter and have phenominal good luck). So you need to be either planning for a complete rebuild (crank regrind, rebore, oversized pistons, valvetrain overhaul, etc) or looking for a new engine.

As for checking gauges, lights, etc, I once seized and engine going at *cough* mph down the motorway in a repmobile, and having the crank seal let go. So you can't always rely on instruments to tell you something's going wrong if you or it are going fast enough for a small problem to become a major problem in not much time...

[bmcecosse]

It becomes second nature to keep an eye on the oil pressure gauge - and a yellow light on the speedo can't go un-noticed.
Barry - You say the starter wouldn't turn it - but did you try with the clutch down - in case (bit of a forlorn hope) it's the gearbox that has seized or selected 2 gears at once. Don't bother getting a starting handle - it was just a way of 'feeling' how tight the engine is.

[Pyoor_Kate]

"It becomes second nature to keep an eye on the oil pressure gauge - and a yellow light on the speedo can't go un-noticed."

You say that, but my old A series maintained 45psi until seconds before it died - literally, all I saw was a flicker on the needle - down to 0 and back up (the oil pressure light didn't even come on) before the engine died. To be fair, mine didn't sieze - but it did suffer substantial internal damage. It registered no oil on the dipstick and no coolant.

Mind you, it still ran, took me down the motorway all the way home at 60mph. Granted the trail of blue behind was pretty impressive...

[badfelafel]

I had no black smoke and my oil pressure light didnt come on

[Kevin]

(50mph happily, pulling strongly, but sounding tappety, though running really nicely)

That doesnt sound like an engine about to sieze

I had no black smoke and my oil pressure light didnt come on

That doesnt either

The oil has vanished!

Well thats worrying, I would have thought you would have noticed the increase in noise immediatly beforehand if the oil has gone completely and the oil light should have come on.
To have got nothing is suspicious, I assume you still have water and that is has not gone as well and boiled the oil.
As Roy suggests dip the clutch and get someone to give a push to see if you can turn it around at all.

[badfelafel]

We had a go at trying to get the car to move by pushing / rocking it in 2nd gear - we could make it slide on the ground (!) but couldnt get the wheels to turn

Am looking on eBay just now for a starting handle!

[alex_holden]

If it isn't seized, you should be able to turn it over slowly without a handle. Get an assistant to press the clutch in first in case it is the gearbox that's locked up, then try to turn the crankshaft pulley by hand.

Also try depressing the clutch and pushing the car. If the car rolls normally and immediately stops when you let the clutch out, that would indicate the engine's seized rather than the gearbox.

[pim123]

So the car was at the garage and when you got it back it seems noisier and now it has died ? Seems to me they did something wrong and they can't expect from a customer that he knows about cars or the noises they make...so take it back to them and let them sort it out, their fault, they have to solve it !

[bmcecosse]

Hmmm - the place Barry took it to has a 'certain reputation'.
But I find it hard to see that it has seized - if the oil light didn't do at least a bit of flickering/coming on when idling etc etc. Just shows the importance of an OIL PRESSURE gauge - it's the most important accessory for any A series engined car. If you take the spark plugs out you should normally be able to turn the engine over easily by hand using the fan blades. Every Minor comes with a starting handle - it should be in beside the spare wheel with the jack!

[eastona]

Take the plugs out and see if the engine will turn with the clutch in.

Or just whip the head off and have a peep inside. You know you want to, and we all want to see the pictures

There aren't any large holes in the side of the block are there? I had an MG engine that sounded "tappety" turned out it was a bust big end bolt. I found this out when the other one went and the conrod appeared through the side of the engine. Mind you, that went with a BIG bang and clouds of blue smoke.

Andrew

[Packedup]

Whats the chances an engine that started clattering then died is fine and it's really a gearbox problem? I mean, really. I suppose it's possible, but if it really is the case I suggest the OP invests in lottery tickets, as he's clearly versed in the art of the long shot.

When I toasted my repmobile I had no warnings in terms of lights or noise, it just went from doing about 5k rpm to 0 as soon as I dipped the clutch - The energy of the car had kept the engine turning and as soon as it only had itself to keep it running the internal friction overcame the combustion, and it seized. Though the cause of failure was obvious as soon as I looked at the drivers side, where most of the sump contents had gone...

So, the OP has a car that started to clatter, died, has NO OIL in the sump, and now won't turn over. I somehow doubt the problem is a selector or starter motor issue...

As for turning the engine on a handle, for the sake of seeing if it turns I'd drop the plugs and get a decent long screwdriver or bar on the starter dog if I didn't have a handle - I'd never want to fire an engine up that way, but it's as good as anything to see if it turns (make sure the ign is off in case of a Minor miracle of it not being utterly banjaxed).