Oil burning/blue smoke

Post by **Furrtiv** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:52 pm

Hi all, the drama with Ector continues!
After still having problems starting from cold despite the fitting of an alternator, the old boy went back to the mechanic. I had the luxury(?) of an early model Mundaneo on loan from said garage while the chief looked over the moggy, and while it was lovely to listen to Wogan on the way to work every morning, I was grateful for the return of my beloved Minor this morning. Turns out that the distributor and various other parts were, I think, soiled and messy and not connecting correctly. I think. Sadly, all went a bit wrong and a cylinder stopped working halfway home, so I turned around and headed back, thankfully finding that the mechanic hadn't shut up shop for the afternoon and was still available.

It appears that my car has an ongoing slight health problem.

It's a smallish oil leak that fouls up the number four plug and means that every once in a while, I'll need a new plug, so I was furnished with a complete new set (for free, BTW - my mechanic is indeed a lovely man and a godsend, and he didn't charge me for the onceover he gave Ector this week while trying to find out what this starting problem was). I've been told that there is next to nothing that can be done about this oil leak problem that would be worth the money, so I'm now faced with a Traveller that uses up a fair bit of oil, is in danger of slipping down to three cylinders occasionally, and spurts out blue smoke from the exhaust.

Apparently it's very difficult to trace the exact source of an oil leak, and it also might require maching and therefor the cost of fixing what is allegedly a common problem would be prohibitive. I've also been told that the engine )original one still in there) is tired, due in no small part to the niggardly maintenance habits of previous owners.

I guess what I'm thinking of is putting a new/reconditioned engine in eventually - would this solve the oil leak problem? Also, would I need new brakes/other requirements to keep up with a new engine? Plus, would a non-Minor, but still Morris-made, engine, be suitable? I have a bit of a thing about wanting to keep as much of the car Morris-made as possible, and although the thought of a beefed-up engine is nice, I'd like to keep it all Morris brand.

And is a new engine really necessary? My mechanic doesn't think so and I trust him, but I hate to see my car smoking from the rear and I'm worried that it will just get even more worn out and tired. And is this a common problem, as my mechanic says he knows of a couple of other owners with the same issue?

Post by **rayofleamington** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:50 pm

And is a new engine really necessary?

neccessary is hard to define - if you want to remove the blue smoke and oiling up #4 plug then the engine needs to be repaired or replaced.
The cost of a full engine rebuild is not cheap - the cost of a new engine is also not cheap.
The cost of a second hand engine is normally far better for the bank balance but with second hand engines you take more of a gamble on the state of the engine. If you know the previous owner and they are trustworthy, the risk can be reduced. If you buy an engine advertised as 'not tested / condition should be ok / no warranty' then the risk can be high but the price can be low.

There's no right or wrong answer but plenty of choices.

Post by **chrisd87** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:50 pm

You could try and lay your hands on a good used Minor engine, which will probably cost you upwards of £50 or so and is quite easy to swap in a day with the use of an engine crane. It would be best to see it running and if possible check the compressions and oil pressure.

Post by **alex_holden** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:40 pm

Did it only start doing burning oil after your mechanic took the head off recently?

I think no. 4 is the closest cylinder to the gallery where the oil travels from the block to the head isn't it? Perhaps the new head gasket hasn't sealed properly around the holes...

Smoky exhaust can be an MOT failure, but a complete engine-swap sounds a bit drastic to me.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:33 pm

As above - it won't pass MOT if smoking. The 'oil leak' will either be down the valve stems - or much more likely up past the piston rings (and just a chance it's the oil passage to the rockers which is at #1 not #4). By far th best bet is a good runing engine from someone on here - or more dangerously from ebay. If you don't wnt a lot of power then just get a 948 engine - but the 1098 engine is actually a far better beast for modern traffic. Engin cost - maybe £50 and maybe another £50 to have it fitted by your ever faithful mechanic.

Post by **Furrtiv** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:52 pm

Well, it's definitely a 1098 engine as that's what it was originally fited with.

It did have a new head gasket quite recently as the old one blew, so I'll check with my mechanic as it was indeed only smoking after I picked it up from the garage.

It'll have to wait until Monday before I can get him on the blower to ask about it, though.

Post by **alex_holden** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:02 pm

My suggestion of a leak from the oil gallery is unlikely if as BMC says the gallery is actually next to cylinder no. 1 and it's cylinder no. 4 that's burning oil, however the next thing to consider is if it was caused by whatever it was he had to take the head off to fix. I think it was valve-related? Valve guides and valves are easy enough to change and even a head swap is much less drastic than a complete engine swap (I don't believe you'll find anyone willing to do the job for as little as £50 BTW).

Post by **NZJLY** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:09 pm

Or if all else fails, you can try smoke stop stuff that you pour into the engine. If it works, you can get another MOT

John

Post by **Furrtiv** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:23 pm

Well, it is definitely the number 4 that's causing the problems as that is the one that went and wasn't working. I'll try to talk to my mechanic on Monday - and there's no way he'd be able to do an engine swap for £50!

The RAC man who rescued me when the car first broke down suggested it was the valve between number 3 and number 4 that was causing the problems, but the mechanic says that it was the head gasket that had gone, plus a few other problems, so it's likely that something hasn't quite slotted back into place properly. I'm really not happy about the amount of smoke it's blowing out the back, so I'll definitely be wanting to atlk to him about that next week.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:38 pm

Engine swap on a Minor is only 2 hours for a competent mechanic with a hoist. i wish i could get paid £25 per hour. I suspect he has not fitted valve stem oil seals when the head was off. Ask him to do a compression test on the engine - and report the results back here. And if he doesn't have this most basic bit of garage kit - walk away fast.

Post by **chrisd87** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:43 pm

Have you or your mechanic run a compression test on the engine? That would be able to tell you all sorts of things about the condition of your engine. If No. 4 is low and the reading is improved by squirting a bit of oil into the cylinder then the rings are shot on that cylinder. If the oil does not improve the reading then suspect the valves, or the gasket has gone.

If it's the valves then you can easily pick up a few secondhand cylinder heads for £10 apiece and see if they're any good. Replacing the head is a really simple job that you can do at home in a few hours with basic tools - no need to send it to the mechanic.

Post by **Packedup** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:30 am

Just to add my agreement of getting a compression test.

Burning oil and low compression on the same cylinder would point to worn rings/ bore. You'd probably be OK fitting new rings, but the block could need a rebore I suppose.

If the compression test comes out OK then one easy and sensible fix might be to find an unleaded head - A good condition or even newly converted/ reconned one should have no issues with wear and means you can put your foot down more without worrying about top end death

Cheapest option would be a good s/h engine - I'll refrain from fuming publicly about the 4 or so I know got skipped before I had chance to save them recently, but look to pay nothing to 100 quid for one - You only want to pay top prices if you can see/ hear it running though.

Post by **Furrtiv** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:49 pm

Um, just to clarify - you may all know how to do "simple" jobs at home, but please bear in mind that there are some moggy owners who have no mechanical knowledge/training whatsoever. I really wouldn't know how to do a compression test, or change valves, or anything like that.
I take my car to my mechainc when it has problems, and trust him to do what's right. So far, he's not let me down, but this particular problem is niggling me a bit so I'll speak to him about it.

Post by **Furrtiv** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:51 pm

Oh yes, Ector does have an unleaded head - it came with the car upon purchase.

Post by **alex_holden** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:20 pm

A compression test is really one of the easiest things you can do on an engine, but you do need the gauge to do it.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:49 pm

I don't suggest you do the test - get a competent mechanic to do it, and then report back here with the results. The fact that your mechanic hasn't already suggested/done this make me very sceptical ........ You really should get yourself along to a car maintenance class and then you won't be taken for a ride !!

Post by **Packedup** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:42 pm

Furrtiv wrote:Um, just to clarify - you may all know how to do "simple" jobs at home, but please bear in mind that there are some moggy owners who have no mechanical knowledge/training whatsoever. I really wouldn't know how to do a compression test, or change valves, or anything like that.

Compression tester - 50p (car boot) to 20 quid. Take out spark plugs (spark plug spanner/ socket 50p car boot to at most a fiver for a T bar), put tester in first cylinder. Turn engine on key for a couple of seconds. Makenote of the reading, move onto next cylinder, repeat.

Would take maybe 15 to 20 minutes from bonnet up to bonnet down and is one of the less grubby jobs. Let's put it this way, by the time you've written the original post, read replies, and replied yourself here and there, you'd have got the test done and imply be asking how to interpret the results. You might not know now how to do the test, change valves etc, but you could learn if you wanted, there's plenty of people around here happy to help with that kind of thing, even if it is remote rather than face to face training

I take my car to my mechainc when it has problems, and trust him to do what's right. So far, he's not let me down, but this particular problem is niggling me a bit so I'll speak to him about it.

You could already have worked out (with help from here) what the problem is most likely to be if you'd dared open the bonnet and take the plunge into understanding how a car works. Really, the general workings of an engine and how to service it aren't complex

Post by **Furrtiv** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:59 pm

Where did I say that my mechanic hadn't done a compression test? I simply don't know, and I was too busy today to phone up and ask. And as for "daring to open a bonnet" - well, I won't reply in any detail as I have had a bit to drink and that last post may have been misinterpreted by me as sarcastic when it wasn't meant to be. Suffice to say, I've no mechanical knowledge whatsoever, and am loathe to go tinkering around in my daily runner no mater how good the instructions of forum members may be. When it comes down to it, I really don't trust myself not to do damage, and I'd rather take on a college course with a qualified instructor to do anyhting like this rather than just dive headlong into doing stuff to the engine.
I was just wondering if people had had similar experiences and what range of questions to ask my mechainc, or what perhaps the problem may be.
Sorry if I sound snippy, I don't mean to be, but some of us are better off not taking up the spanners ourselves without supervision. I count myself as one of those people.
What I will be doing is running the car for the next couple of weeks to see if the oil burning continues, then take it back to the mechanic with some of the issues/questions raised here and see what he says.
And I'm sorry, but the inner workings of a car engine are very complex to me, I struggle to understand even the basics of any form of engineering let alone the internal combustion engine - remember, what may seem simple to some can be exceedingly complex to others, we're not all blessed with the brains to work out these things for ourselves.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:32 am

Well - you seem determined not to help yourself, and to continue to throw wadges of cash at the 'mechanic' - good luck to you!

Post by **alex_holden** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:58 am

I think that's a bit harsh, BMC. Furrtiv has said she is planning to take car maintenance classes but isn't prepared to risk working on the engine herself until then. Perhaps we forget sometimes that not everybody has the confidence gained from many years of experience to simply pull something to bits and then worry about how to fix it and put it back together (and what happened to the tiny screw that held the widget to the doodah) ;)