Ineffective handbrake

Post by **Pyoor_Kate** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:15 am

Okay, I'm sure I'm missing something blindingly obvious here, but... Over the last 6 months the handbrake on Rebecca's got progressively worse. Initially I noted that the shoes were nearing their wear limits, and I reckoned that probably combined with wear on the drum that might be the cause.

So I changed the shoes.

Things got a little better, the handbrake only came up a couple of notches, all was well. Then they got worse again; rapidly; back to the leaving the car in gear on all but the slightest slope. She *just* passed her MOT - exactly on the minimum handbrake effectiveness, but the chap who did the MOT explained that he'd had to pull as hard as he could on the handbrake to get it on far enough that it worked that much. The handbrake had gone back to being pulled up a couple of stops from the end-stop.

Then I remembered that one of the drums was hideously worn - and had huge ridges, it occured to me that if the shoe had worn to those ridges it'd probably be requiring quite a lot of adjustment. I checked. It did. So I declared one of the drums to be completely worn out (it is) changed it and readjusted it and that had no effect; the handbrake was by now only functioning really one stop from the last click. Then it occured that maybe the handbrake cable'd streched, so I tightened them up; and now it comes up much less far, but the handbrake's still not actually very effective.

Since it's warming up I'm thinking about taking the drums apart and having a look (again); but can anyone suggest what might be causing me grief?

Post by **ColinP** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:26 pm

Hi Kate,

Just a couple of lunch-time thoughts (That's my excuse in first, in case I'm wrong

)

1) How are the actual cables? If one of them was breaking strands, then you'd get more stretch on them (till one breaks - no pun intended, just happened!)

2) Does the cable outer need greased? - my car's got grease nipples on the cables (one each side just before the axle)

3) Just behind the handle there's a couple of cable adjusters with lock nuts (just nead the seat belt anchorages in mine) - are these still tight?

4) Scarier thoughts - how's the floor mountings of the handbrake? (ok, now you can weld it's less scary!)

All the best,

Colin

Post by **rayofleamington** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:29 pm

handbrakes can be a pain, but normally there is something fairly simple causing a problem.
First thing to check is that the cables are not jamming - they should be very free sliding and you should be able to push the cable in and out with finger and thumb.
then - makes sure the outer part of the piston is free to move and that the 90° lever is free too.
if everything is free, then normally you just need to slacken the cable, adjust the shoes and then readjust the cable (brake adjustment will be problematic if the handbrake cable is over adjusted). If the shoes can be adjusted so that the drum won't turn then the drum shouldn't be the problem.
If the drum is oversize (a lot) then you'll be able to rotate the adjuster past its maximum and it'll click round to the start position

If the shoes are #### they can interfere with the adjuster so it won't go all the way - then you thing they are adjusted as the adjuster will no longer turn but you won't be adjusted as much as you want. This can be cured by modifying the shoes to give clearance to the adjuster.

If everything is fine so far, then you need to look for the less common faults.
Are you sure that the shoes have not been contaminated with brake fluid or axle oil? That will make the brakes fairly ineffective.
is the handbrake outer cable in good condition (not bunching up) and located very securely at its ends?
If the problem comes from excessive brake shoe wear there may be something allowing the brake shoes to drag (poor springs, sticking piston etc..)
failing that - do the rear cylinders slide freely on the backplate? If not they will give mild problems over time.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:56 pm

Almost certainly seized up rear cylinders - take them apart and clean/re-seal them. Then check cables are free - and grease them - and slacken them off! Then adjust up the brakes and then - re-adjust the cables to get the brake where you like it. I find it's best to keep a bit of movement in the cables to stop them - and the cylinders - from seizing up. In good order the handbrake will lock the rear tyres on a dry road. Of course the new shoes you have may be made of camel dung - nowhere near as good as the good old asbestos shoes ! You may need to try again with yet more new shoes. Sometimes get new old stock on ebay - these are the ones to go for!

Post by **Onne** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:46 pm

But Kate, when she went for her MOT, how were the brakes when using the pedal? Any better? In which case you might or might not rule out the handbrake.

Minor rear brakes aren't that hard working examples anyway. I have got a leaking oil seal (for the last 6 months or so) and she still stops straight

Post by **Pyoor_Kate** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:55 pm

The brakes were way better using the pedal, it's just the handbrake that's not working. There's a slight unevenness, the left's more effective (both at the front and the rear) than the right...

Post by **Onne** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:05 pm

Weird. There is copper grease on the normal places? But you can say the cylinders can be ruled out?. Now thinking (yes really!) out loud:

If you put the handbrake down again, do the cables go back instantly?
When the MOT man checked the handbrake, were both sides about the same? It would be weird to have both cables slip up at the same time.

At least you have got a year to sort it all out!

Post by **crossword** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:08 am

I don't think the problem can be the cylinders themselves but possibly they are seized onto the backplate. the cylinders have to be able to slide on the backplate in order to work . If seized so that the leading shoe does not properly touch the drum but the trailing shoe does this could explain things . I would chock the front wheels jack & remove the rear wheels & drums and ensure that the cylinder slides up and down freely .If not, remove & clean the cyl groove and the slot in the backplate then apply a smear of coppergrease . Good luck.

Post by **minor_hickup** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:04 pm

Have you checked the handbrake cables' sheath? If it has become detached at one end the handbrake won't work properly. This happened to me and the handbrake was useless at one side.

Post by **bigginger** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:07 pm

Try Wolseley drums. And thicker oil.

Post by **newagetraveller** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:49 pm

Here is another possibility.

The rear cylinders contain a lever which pivots on a pin. The end of the lever outside the cylinder is connected to the end of the cable. On the other end of the lever inside the cylinder is a somewhat pointed end which pushes the end of the piston out of the cylinder when the cable is pulled.

If the pointed end of the lever gets worn down then the piston is not pushed far enough out of the cylinder and the handbrake cannot operate properly.

This can be overcome by building up the tip of the lever with weld and grinding it down so that it has the same profile as a new lever.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:15 pm

"Try Wolseley drums. And thicker oil" .

That's a really stupid unhelpful reply Ginger ! Well done, one of your best.

Back to practical helpful thinking - the clevis pin that fixes the lever to the cable needs to be free enough to swivel - worth freeing that off too.

Post by **bigginger** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:35 pm

It was. Thing is, I know Kate and I know that she has a sense of humour.

Post by **wanderinstar** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:50 pm

Bigginger,
Do you mean fit complete Wolseley rear brakes? That would increase braking effort, however it seems like Kate has a problem in the actual operating system. I think the problem would still be there after fitting Wolseley brakes. Try as I may I dont think that "thicker oil" will help brake problem. How do you suggest that the thicker oil be used, possibly to oil all linkages. Is this based on personal experience, if so pray tell.

I have some rear Wolseley brakes that I intend to fit to my car, when I do I will let you know if it affects handbrake.

Ian.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:58 pm

Do you mean fit complete Wolseley rear brakes?...

It was only humour. I'm not going to comment on it's quality though ;-)

I have some rear Wolseley brakes that I intend to fit to my car, when I do I will let you know if it affects handbrake.

Bigger rear drums are used by a few people (but not a lot).
e.g. the rear brakes on Escort axle are heavier duty than a Minor.
If you have good disk brakes then there will be little benefit from uprating the rears - Under heavy braking with high rated disks there is little grip left at the rear wheels anyway!!
If they are to be used in combination with Wolseley front drums it may be a 'nice to have' mod. The handbrake depends on lever ratio but if all that is compensated it will be more effective (bigger diameter drum = more braking for less effort)

Post by **Willie** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:14 pm

Surely, if the rear brake problem is due to sticking pistons in the wheel cylinders then it would show up because the brakes would not release after
each application? So Kate, do the rear drums free off after handbrake application?

Post by **Pyoor_Kate** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:40 pm

Yes.

When I adjusted the cable they worked fine, briefly. Although I still had to pull hard to make them work, but it only went up a couple of clicks before I had to pull a bit.

'm thinking they may have got stiff and need greasing (in the right places)

Post by **Willie** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:33 pm

Well to my mind that rules out the rear wheel cylinders then so must be well worth lubricating the hand brake cables. Presumably you have the type with
a grease nipple fitted. If they are really stiff it could be worth injecting rear
axle oil first??

Post by **Pyoor_Kate** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:10 am

Well, that's the odd thing. The handbrake cables don't feel stiff at all; they get greased every 3000 miles (I'm good on greasing things)...

And bizzarely, despite barely holding the car normally, yesterday on steep hills with 5 people in the car as we tootled round Bristol, it worked fine. Held the car on the hills, no problem. So. Hrm. I need to go look. Sadly, as it's now working I shall probably leave it until after I've finished my Uni work (of which there is 'rather a lot')

Post by **rayofleamington** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:44 pm

Kate - does it work better or worse after the car has just been driven? If it is a lot worse you may have dragging rear brakes (hot brakes normally don't work well). If it is better after a decent run, then an explanation will be possible (somehow) but not a simple one

The handbrake cables don't feel stiff at all

have you tried them by hand (finger and thumb should be all it takes to move the cable in and out)?
If the cables ae free running but travel / force required is still terrible, it may be related to the handbrake cable outers (eg bunching up) - if you adjust 2 thirds of the travel out of the cable, do the rear brakes bind?