Morris Minor Owners Club

What happens when a complaint about a company is sent to the club secretary, as suggested earlier? Is a database available where a member can read the outcome if there is one, or is there no access to the information.

if it happened else where then all adverts would stop

I have decided to remove all of our posts in this thread as it's all got a bit out of hand.

Many thanks to the forum members who have taken time to offer us advice.

I'd be obliged if you would remove any text or pictures you've quoted from me.

As a fairly quiet forum attendee, if I was considering work to be done by a company, I would look in the magazine, and maybe do a search on the forum. I probably would not think to ask about the practice of the company as I would assume that if there was an issue, then it would be out in the open.
So, I am in favor of at the very minimum having a traders section and a positive ratings system, so we can look and see who is the the company with the most support. If it was updated yearly or 2 yearly, it would be current, and no-one can sue for good feedback.
There is also a risk of issues being blown out of proportion if discussions are not out in the open, where poor practice may seem to be a bigger issue that it was. I think it is called Chinese whispers

I am not a member, but if I was, I would expect my organization to make sure that we as the moggie owners around the world, get the best information and advice on the care, maintenance and restoration of our cars. Each one destroyed by poor practice (to say nothing of the risk to life) is one more that will never be back.

John

NZJLY wrote:if I was considering work to be done by a company, I would look in the magazine, and maybe do a search on the forum. I probably would not think to ask about the practice of the company as I would assume that if there was an issue, then it would be out in the open.

Although it's been said here many times before, hopefully this thread will highlight to people that if you're planning on purchasing a car you really need to check it very thoroughly before purchase. A nice shiney car can be hiding lots of rot and something as basic as taking a fridge magnet with you when you look at a car will at least help to identify what is filler and what is metal. And the club has branches all over the country so you can always contact your nearest branch to find out what companies they recommend in your area. And as previously pointed, out there is very useful advice contained within the club magazine for anyone considering getting professional restoration work done.

Well there seem to be a lot of assumptions being made here and I'm not sure what has caused you to form these views moggiefan. You suggest that the club is not willing to tolerate discourse from it's members regarding a particular company, are concerned that you might be banned simply for mentioning a company name, suggest that untold members are unsatisfied with the company, criticise the club for not doing anything about it and then say that you are unwilling to provide details of your complaint to the club because you don't believe that the commitee will do anything. I'm wondering if these opinions have been formed purely from what a small number of people may have informed you via pm rather than being provided with actual facts?

Thankfully I've not been in a position such as yourself, so haven't needed to forward details of a complaint to the club, but I wouldn't just assume that nothing would be done just because someone, who may never have forwarded any complaint themselves to the club, told me that nothing would be done. Obviously it's entirely a matter for you if you wish to forward details to the club or not, and I don't know what action might be taken because it would all depend on the actual facts relating to your particular case, which can't be determined without knowing all of the details and seeing the paperwork. However don't just dismiss it completely out of hand purely because of what someone who may have no personal experience themselves of forwarding a complaint to the club has told you.

While all of this is essentially correct, all I can say is that we are telling the truth. We do not believe that the MMOC committee will do anything about this issue, even if we did supply it with all of the paperwork. Likewise, we cannot spare the time, money or energy to approach the company concerned directly, or take them to court. That is the situation.

Louise, you could be right starts all this up and wont follow through . so whats the problem let all be careful

The good news is - there already exists a thread where forum members were asked to comment on suppliers - here it is!
http://www.mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t= 3043

I have decided to remove all of our posts in this thread as it's all got a bit out of hand.

Many thanks to the forum members who have taken time to offer us advice.

I'd be obliged if you would remove any text or pictures you've quoted from me.

LouiseM wrote:... And as previously pointed, out there is very useful advice contained within the club magazine for anyone considering getting professional restoration work done.

Glossy Advertisements no doubt ....
which people would 'assume' that the particular business would be kosher and do the correct work correctly, as you would 'assume' that if a large organisation such as the MMOC allowed this firm to advertise (ie duty of care from the MMOC) then said company is deemed to be a company that does not do shoddy work.

I reiterate my point that the advertisements should be pulled, sooner, rather than later.

Well we seem to be going round in circles here, with people demanding that the club takes action over a matter that they have not been provided with the full facts about. As said previously, there simply isn't enough information provided within this thread to make an informed decision as to what exactly has gone on. Not disputing what has been said but there is also a lot that hasn't been said so the full picture isn't known. For example:

If the leak has only just been noticed how is it possible to know how long it has been there for?

linearaudio wrote:As I found many years ago, a poor detective could at least put an earliest date on a scrunched paper fix, as one of the bits will almost certainly have date info on it ( in my case it was dated 2 days before I bought the car, nothing at all to do with the current company in question!)

But there's no information here as to whether there is a date on the paper in this case, or what that date is. From what you are saying linearaudio the work on your car may have been carried out by the previous owner in order to make it look 'good' to sell it. The same might apply in this case or it might not - it's not possible to tell from the information that has been posted here.

Also, it would be a damned good bit of paper-and-filler work that would last more than a year without bubbling up and requiring remedial treatment- the Moggy in question had apparently been tended to by ********* for some time longer than that!

From moggiefan's previous posts it seems that the car was purchased between August and December last year and the problem with the 'rear humps' has only just become noticeable. There is no however no mention of any remedial work being carried out on the 'rear humps' since it has been in moggiefan's ownership so from what you are saying the work may have been carried out shortly before the car was purchased. It's not possible to tell though from the information that has been posted.

So whilst no one is doubting what has been said there is also a lot of relevant information missing which could only be provided by receipts & invoices etc. However if moggiefan does not wish to provide these to the club - which is entirely up to him at the end of the day - how can the club be expected to establish the facts and / or take any action?

I have decided to remove all of our posts in this thread as it's all got a bit out of hand.

Many thanks to the forum members who have taken time to offer us advice.

I'd be obliged if you would remove any text or pictures you've quoted from me.

Why not involve Trading Standards? I imagine they would be most helpful.

Phil.

I have decided to remove all of our posts in this thread as it's all got a bit out of hand.

Many thanks to the forum members who have taken time to offer us advice.

I'd be obliged if you would remove any text or pictures you've quoted from me.

faversham999 wrote:I bought a restored convertible. It looked great new interior but was just rubbish underneath all patches. Then bought a car that was refurbished and sold to sombody for £7500 it was full of rust but now its a great car. good luck with the car

I know which company rhis was too!

moggiefan wrote:I have decided to remove all of our posts in this thread as it's all got a bit out of hand.

Many thanks to the forum members who have taken time to offer us advice.

I'd be obliged if you would remove any text or pictures you've quoted from me.

I've removed your text & pictures as requested moggiefan. It's unfortunate that your original request for help & advice became 'hijacked' by a small minority in order to criticise the club and it's officials and also to post unsubstantiated (and even completely untrue) comments relating to a trader. I think that this thread has demonstrated that however upset or aggrieved you might feel against an individual or trader an internet forum is not the best place to air those grievances. It is all too easy to make assumptions as to who was responsible for sub-standard workmanship when upset or angry, but such potentially serious allegations need to be based on facts, not assumptions. And unfortunately it is then all too easy for others to jump to conclusions and press the 'send' button without giving any thought to the possible consequences of what they have written.

To others who find themselves in a similar position to moggiefan the best course of action, before posting any details onto an internet forum, is to seek legal advice. As has been pointed out, there are organisations who can provide such advice for free and will independently study the facts and the evidence to see whether there are grounds for taking a complaint further. Advice, information and comments provided by 'anonymous' people on the internet may be incorrect, may be misleading and may actually hinder any chances there may be to take a substantiated complaint forward.

Moggiefan - I hope that the problems with your car will be sorted to your satisfaction and that your experience of this thread does not deter you from visiting this messageboard. There is a huge amount of useful information and advice available here and a lot of helpful and experienced members who are only too happy to answer questions and provide help to fellow Minor owners.

I've had a quick scan through the board, it would appear that we have no stickies advising people what to do if they do have a trader dispute! This could be very useful, I was also wondering whether the club would accept documentation of problems with traders from non-members. It would also be useful if such a sticky outlined the formal process that the club goes through after receiving such complaints up to the point of a clear description of when they would remove advertising.

Of course needless to say it should also include the instruction that the club should be notified on resolution of the complaint whether it is through legal means or the trader backing down.

It could also have a reminder that naming and shaming is not allowed on this board and explain why.

Hopefully this would give people who have ended up in moggiefans situation a one stop advise point for ways to deal with this sort of problem.

I realise that a lot of people feel that we should have some method of outing the rogue trader, perhaps it would be useful if in the clubs annual report they were to list the number of complaints received by them against named traders (without describing specifics etc), as this is only received by members it would obviously not be of help to everyone but one of the reasons you pay to join is to receive the benefits!

[in true Columbo fashion] Just one more thing
It should also have recommendations of what you should send the club.

I'd also, while I'm at it, like to see (just the numbers) how many requests for dispute resolution through the club are made each year and how many are successful along side the numbers of trader complaints/disputes raised with the club giving a final table as such....


Trader Disputes raised Resolution service requested Resolution achieved Unresolved disputes

IM Dodgy 100000 100000 1000 99000


If they also listed the table from the previous year it would allow members to see whether the trader was improving their standards or getting worse. I realise that there would need to be a disclaimer printed for those disputes where no contact had been made by the club to the trader. (something like no club contact has been made with IM Dodgy regarding 50% of the disputes so the club cannot verify the accuracy of those complaints)

Anyway enough rambling and off to the garage to do more work on Rosie (because I don't use the local MM specialist following issues which I didn't complain to the club about at the time because I forgot to )

p.s. If there really is an IM Dodgy trading can the Mods please change the name

I've removed your text & pictures as requested moggiefan. It's unfortunate that your original request for help & advice became 'hijacked' by a small minority in order to criticise the club and it's officials and also to post unsubstantiated (and even completely untrue) comments relating to a trader.

And unfortunately it is then all too easy for others to jump to conclusions and press the 'send' button without giving any thought to the possible consequences of what they have written.

Way to go louise on how to make the paid up members of your orgasnisation feel involved, respected and part of a community - i for one will be requesting a refund on my membership based on that comment. can you arrange that please?

Sorry if you feel that the particular comments were directed at you Mark but they were not. You, and pskipper, have made some very constructive comments which will be put forward for consideration and discussion by the club.

My point was an attempt to hopefully make people think about the consequences of what they are posting in future, particularly in a situation like this where we frequently see people jumping to all sorts of conclusions, none of which are actually based on fact. It's not fair to the trader or individual concerned when people make assumptions whilst knowing very little about the matter under discussion. A number of comments - which you may not have seen - have had to be removed as they were firstly, entirely untrue and secondly, may well have caused legal problems for the club if they had remained on the board.

Unfortunately there are a small number of non-club members who are using other peoples posts in which to criticise the club and it's individuals. This is not fair on the members concerned and does not help with the smooth running of this messageboard which the majority of people here visit for help, advice and discussion relating to Minors.

LouiseM wrote:Unfortunately there are a small number of non-club members who are using other peoples posts in which to criticise the club and it's individuals. This is not fair on the members concerned and does not help with the smooth running of this messageboard which the majority of people here visit for help, advice and discussion relating to Minors.

I would hate to think that I am one of the naughty ones, don't you think there is a theme emerging? And it is not even about poor trademanship. It is about how the MMOC responds to complaints of poor work, how they report back to the members, and the removal of the offending organizations adverts from the magazine, as it implies to some degree MMOC support.

It seems interesting that on the website we agree that we are responsible for our own posts, and the MMOC is not liable for anything said. Even with this disclaimer, the posts are moderated because of the "risk" to the organization. However, adverts from poor traders are still in the magazine as the magazine has a disclaimer just like the website. The two approaches seem to be quite different.

I would also like to make it clear that I don't want to pick on the moderators who do a very difficult job on this forum, but in my humble opinion, the committee need to relook at what they are there for, and where the MMOC is headed. We have lost Judge, we have lost Jonathon and very many more who are not as prolific or helpful as the aforementioned, but are still a loss to the MMOC.

I am not a current member through choice, as I don't need a glossy magazine, and I am not close enough to take advantage of a local club. I have used the forum to keep my car on the road, but I tend now to use other forums for that. The MMOC will always continue, but it could be some much more for it's members, and I think that is what the criticism is all about.

John Young
Morris Owner
New Zealand