Morris Minor Owners Club

hehe! well it looks like I better get the tents out!! haha!

If I were to do this I would source the original Flat Four engine!!! Make this a real piece of magical history! A tribute to Sir Alec Issigonis with a car made how he wanted it!

The engine therefore will have to be sourced from a jowett javelin!

Using an axle from an A30/A35 would be a fantastic idea! Cheers Andy! That was one job I was strugeling on what to use!

Keep it going lads! this is realy starting to take of!

I should of read this topic ages ago.

I am also restoring a Jowett Javelin, and at the moment the engine is out. Having heard the mog was orignally going to have a flat four in it loosely based on the Jowett unit, i decided to see how much modifcation would be needed to fit the Jowett unit into the mog. This is basically what i came up with.

1. The engine bay isnt wide enough, by about 3 inches. But is plenty deep enough.
2. The inner wheel arches would need to be removed to allow access to the sparkplugs and rockers etc with the engine in situ.
3. A modified steering column would need to be fitted to allow for the Jowett units column shift style gearbox (a very good and precise set up it is too).
4. A longer propshaft would be needed as the the gearbox of the jowett is considerably shorter than the Mogs. This may lead to balancing problems and as such a mid-way bearing may need to be fitted to the prop shaft to stop vibration etc.
5. Bonnet would need to be raised as the radiator and waterpump/fan assembly sit ontop of the jowett unit, making it nearly a foot taller than the mog unit.

So, a lot of fiddly work for a lethargic, unreliable, expensive lump of an engine.
Stick with the A series!

YG

egine of a jowett jupiter is hear http://www.jowettjupiter.co.uk/specs.htm can't find a piccy of the gearbox yet.

Andy G

Oh and errr, The JCC (jowett car club) are a rather stern old lot......any engines for sale be it Javelin or Jupiter (the jupiter engine was exactly the same apart from higher comp ratios, hydraulic tappets, Solex carbs and few other bits), are usually controlled by them and as it were " kept in the circle". It may be difficult to get hold of one, especially if they know its not going to go into a Jowett. However, i recently spoke to a fellow who claims to have a number of engines and gearboxes in his shed, if your interested i may be able to contact him.
But bear in mind, if the engine is knackered it WILL cost you well over 2K to rebuild it as the engines are incredibly over-engineered and complicated. They have wet liners, with stupid bottom seals which mean if you remove the head you have to remove the liners and replace the seals, the aluminium crankcase is split in the middle and never seals properly and the older machined square web cranks have a habit of exploding after 50,000 miles!!

But, you can have a fully modernised (a whole load of engineers have redesigned and rebuilt the engine, and it is now superb bit of kit that can put out 90BHP as standard) Jowett engine from the JCC for about £7,500!

YG

Ok thanks for that information! I can see the engine bay width being a problem as it is 3inches to narrow and thats before the chop!

The spark pugs could be accessable via the inner wheel arches via a small inspection hole but this would need to be looked at.

Yes if you could talk to your friend who has the engines and just get a feel for what he has on offer that would be great!

Again more research needs to be carried out on how Sir Alec Issigonis did manage to fit the flat four into the two out of the eight prototypes that were made.

Andrew,

Not wishing to be rude, but the flat four that was be fitted into the mossy fitted because the engine bay was designed for that engine, which was NOT the Jowett lump. Now I very much doubt that any of the proper flat fours exist now, but why would you want to go down that route anyway? If you are serious about making a true replica then use a MM side-valve, if not put a 1098 into it so that you can at least drive it around and keep up with traffic!

The jowett engine won't fit after you've chopped the body, and 1098's are easy to get hold off and are cheap so would get the thing running.

Andy G

There is one other thing worth considering. You cannot simply cut 4" out of an early MM and make a mosquito as the series MM was made from spot welded pressed body panels and the Mosquito prototypes would have been hand made from sheet metal by coachbuilders as MM body panels would not have been available before the prototypes.

Unless you can fabricate a whole car from sheet metal and have access to the original blueprints from which to make the parts then its simply not going to be possible to "make" a mosquito. Plus the fact that none of the original engines or mechanics are available.

Better to spend all that effort and money on restoring some original cars. While its true that rusty project Minors are given away or scrapped, there is a demand for clean rust free examples.

You will need to consider , narrowing the axle, steering rack, main x member bulkhead x member , front and rear screens etc etc. Its a really mammoth task which unless blueprints are used would not be worth the effort.
Still if you feel the desire to do this good luck

chickenjohn wrote:There is one other thing worth considering. You cannot simply cut 4" out of an early MM and make a mosquito as the series MM was made from spot welded pressed body panels and the Mosquito prototypes would have been hand made from sheet metal by coachbuilders as MM body panels would not have been available before the prototypes.

Unless you can fabricate a whole car from sheet metal and have access to the original blueprints from which to make the parts then its simply not going to be possible to "make" a mosquito. Plus the fact that none of the original engines or mechanics are available.

Better to spend all that effort and money on restoring some original cars. While its true that rusty project Minors are given away or scrapped, there is a demand for clean rust free examples.

Sorry but I disagree!

I have seen morris minor bodies been choped down the centre before and then welded back together. Although this was to bake the body wider there would be no difference to making it thiner.

Sir Alec Issigonis did plan to originaly put the flat four into the Mosquito. I am starting to believe that going with the sidevalve unit would be easier but not quiet as spectacular.

Original mechanics will be impossible to find I agree but by making an effort to source parts off other vehicles that are simular you can still create the effect of the first prototype.

Although making the bodywork 4" thinner would be an increadible achievement I do worry that after that there are too many tasks that will simply kill the project such as Seats? i think the mosquito was meant to have a bench seat in the front which would need to be fabricated at a very high cost, then theres the back seat which cannot be re-used as it will now be 4" to narrow, Petrol tank? I have not looked if there is 2" either side yet but I have the feeling there isnt.

Although these can be overcome with some skill and money I dont think that the end result will be like the Mosquito Prototype

Keeping the body 4" widder may be the best option but it means that it will be near impossible to get the shape of the bonnet unless it is rolled out again! ££££££

As I said earlier, why not just cut one and have it so that you can move it in and out so that the <effect> of having a narrower minor can be seen?

Andy G

I think you may have misunderstood my meaning Ray

maybe ;-) but I can't see that I misunderstood your post.

Everyone has a right to use and modify their own car without being looked down upon or be told they are wrecking a 'rare' classic car - especially one that's not rare.
My series 2 traveller was modified for use as a daily driver - everyone who saw it on the road thought it was great. I often heard that they'd not seen a split screen traveller before and they enthused at seeing it out and about....
And yet at the national rally I only got snotty comments about the modifications and "the guttering isn't right". After that kind of bitter attitude I was only too happy to sell it abroad.

rayofleamington wrote:

I think you may have misunderstood my meaning Ray

maybe ;-) but I can't see that I misunderstood your post.

Everyone has a right to use and modify their own car without being looked down upon or be told they are wrecking a 'rare' classic car - especially one that's not rare.
My series 2 traveller was modified for use as a daily driver - everyone who saw it on the road thought it was great. I often heard that they'd not seen a split screen traveller before and they enthused at seeing it out and about....
And yet at the national rally I only got snotty comments about the modifications and "the guttering isn't right". After that kind of bitter attitude I was only too happy to sell it abroad.

As I said Ray, you may have misunderstood. I will clarify.

Judge wrote:

chickenjohn wrote:I hope that whoever does this is a very skilled metalworker and knows exactly what they are doing or they could end up with a dangerous vehicle or at the very least needlessly wreck a rare classic! Its not as simple as cut 4" out and weld it back together!

Doesn't this go for all modified/customised Minors, whether they be MM's, Series II's or 1000's

When making the above statement, I was not knocking the modifier, I was simply refering to the possibility that as CJ said the modifier could end up with a dangerous vehicle or needlessly, ie unsuccessfully modify, wreck a rare classic.

As you well know from the recent LEO Run, both myself and my daughter run modified Minors. However I also own two very original cars, and it is my concern that if we do not regard certain Minors as rare, and treat all of them in the way you suggest, they will indeed become so, as have many other marques. It is simply learning to strike a balance.

Refering to your post, you state "Everyone has a right to use and modify their own car without being looked down upon", which I accept, However you go on to criticize those that criticized your car. Surely they equally are entiled to their point of view?

I agree with the Judge. I also like nicely done modified cars, we have a few in the East Kent area and when the craftmanship is good, its a joy to behold! OTOH, we have all seen badly bodged cars and these are not good.

I'd like to see a Minor with a flat 4 engine. A good candidate for a doner car could be a Citroen GS there were 1015 or 1302 cc versions. Not very powerful but relatively light being air cooled.

I'm not so sure about narrowing the car, wasn't it Issigonis himself who decided it was too narrow?
The extra width also improved the handling a lot.

But there are hundreds of badly bodged standard minors out there too.
I agree that rare versions need to be retained where possible but how many? you cannot save them all and if a few are used as donors to be modified and as such are kept on the road, then great. My 54 splitty saloon was absolutely mint with no welding, and could have been developed into a good concours car. However I saw it as offering zero welding (hence low cost) just ready to modify as the Zetec demo car. All of the unused original parts will be offered for sale ,hopefully helping to keep another on the road.
I, feel the same as Ray regarding those who deride modified minors, but I suppose its no worse than us commenting on incorrect tyre sizes and excessive polishing on concourse cars.

That's given me a thought, I think I might buy a mint 17th century clock and put a quartz movement in it

Seriously though, as I have said previously, everyone is entitled to there own point of view, and hopefully as we are all Minor enthusiasts we can accept this simple fact of life.

I think most of us do Bill and do not see it as a major problem just an unnecessary aspect.
By the way about that clock, Ive............................

BMW Boxer motorbike engine might fit and has shaft drive.

As I said Ray, you may have misunderstood. I will clarify.

seems I understood 100% ;-)
nobody suggested cutting up a special / rare / show car, yet this has been the assumption.

That's given me a thought, I think I might buy a mint 17th century clock and put a quartz movement in it

I rest my case.
However if you get an unrepairable 17th century clock and rebuild it with a more modern mechanism taking a lot of care and effort to make it useable but still reminiscent of the original... Then I won't be first in the queue to slag it off.

Surely they equally are entiled to their point of view?

They are perfectly entitled to their negative opinion but I never asked for it, so my criticism was that they couldn't keep their unpleasant remarks to themselves.

As someone who loves concours and modified cars I'm dissapointed but not surprised when the modified car owners feel picked on. This is only caused by a minority of people, and at other rallies I've been pleasantly surprised. At a regional rally a few years back I was delighted to see a modified traveller with 1275, non standard seats + disk brakes win 'best in show'.

Badly bodged cars will exist whether people like them or not - and most rolling disasters I've seen are not done by 'modified' owners - yet they are first in the firing line.
Custom cars are often 'outlandish' and often I think 'yuk' however beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

anyway Bill, I think we see each other's point of view - i think I'm probably just in a narky mood Hence the memories of other people's snotty comments on modified cars.
I shall just try and get to sleep with the memories of the fully ratted V8 Minor (my favouritest Minor ever)

If you really want to have a go at this - probably best to start off with a Renault 750 - pretty sure that's what Issy did!