Morris Minor Owners Club

Cam....If I had a foolproof suggestion I could make a fortune.
This is very interesting though isn't it. Ref the modified top
steady bar assembly marketed by 'Mr Grumpy'. In theory that
should improve things because it is at more of a right angle to
the engine than the acutely angled standard item. Who has
fitted one?? Have you tried slackening off your steady bar?
because it should not be 'solid'. The rubbers should only just be
pinched so that there is rubber compression space left to absorb
movement. Worth experimenting with. I have always accepted
the Minor judder as part of the car,and assumed that if a different
engine with different engine/gearbox mounts and especially a
hydraulic clutch were fitted, the problem would disappear! Do
Minors with Fiat engines still suffer from this problem?
Does it disappear when the rear axle is swopped?
Does it disappear if anti-tramp bars are fitted..because the
standard axle/springing is famous for allowing axle tramping.
Perhaps we are experiencing high rev/low speed axle tramp
and not clutch judder at all!!! I'm going to lie down now.
Willie

Willie,

The original top steady bar mount that is fitted as standard caused the same effect as now, but this snapped due to the previous owner making a bodged repair, at which point I made a mount that was at 90 degrees to the engine using a piece of angle iron, but this flexed slightly (amazing I know, but it did and it was observable), it eventually unscrewed itself from the mountings next to the O/S shock absorber because I could not tighten the bolts very tight due to the angle iron being in the way.

So, I made the mount that is on now out of very thick flat steel, which does not allow any movement in relation to the chassis as it is welded on with very thick multiple weaved runs.

The bar is not tightened solid but allows the rubber compression space to absorb movement as it should.

The angle of the bar is about halfway in between the original and 90 degrees to the engine, and it cuts down on the judder more then the previous one, but I suspect that this has more to do with the chassis fixing of the mounting than the angle.

I have tried slackening the bar but this just makes it worse.

I watched it again last night while revving it and the top bar does not allow any appreciable movement BUT the engine seemed to be twisting very slightly left to right (not rotating but twisting).

I don't know if Fiat engined Minors have this problem but I would assume that they do - any comments Fiat folks????

The problem does not dissapear with a change in axle as the problem has been exactly the same with the minor 1098 axle (4.22 diff), as it has been with the Ford axle (3.89 and 4.44 diff).

Also I have fitted anti-tramp bars which are VERY effective to reduce tramp but do not do anything to reduce judder!!

I have also got new traveller springs on the back and telescopic shocks mounted through turrets in the boot floor, and the judder is exactly the same before the conversion as after.

Interestingly though, if I pull away very quickly I do not get any judder, and if I pull away VERY slowly (almost stalling) I do not get any judder, it just seems to be when you try to pull away normally that it occurs.

I think that a bottom mount (cable or other) that will stop this engine twisting may help, as I think that this twisting is due to the engine trying to rotate but the top mount not allowing this at the top, so it is moving slightly on the mountings at the bottom.

Whaddya think???

Cam.

Re Grumpy's top Steady:
I used one for 10 years on my old saloon. The original one had broken so had been thrown away by previous owner - I got a replacement which also broke so I got the Grumpy's one.
I had to re-Tighten it after a couple of years but otherwise it worked fine, and CAM's one sounds rather similar in design.

CAM:
Clutch judder can be a black art and is till found on modern Euro boxes. Sometimes it's down to the clutch being faulty, sometimes down to the clutch being glazed, sometimes it's down to the linkages and sometimes it's down to a resonance of the engine/transmission/suspension.
Anything you can do to minimise the movement of the engine/transmission will help. However if that's not the root cause then you are fixing the symptom not the problem.
Also as a trade-off, the stiffer you make the engine mounting the more noise is likely to be transmitted - Though with your big pipes and carbs, you may be unlikely to hear the extra body bourne noise.

Was the clutch new when you fitted the Ford box?

Blimey CAM... a bottom engine damper is about the only thing
left for you to try. I would have thought from your list of mods
you only ever take of FAST(compared to the rest of us)!
The later minis had a bottom engine damper in addition to the
top one....wonder if it could be adapted to the Minor..
Willie

Cam.. on further reflection, the lack of judder when very slow
or very fast take offs are tried would seem,to me, to reinforce
your need for a bottom anti twist bar.If We think the problem is
caused by the east to west rotation of the engine on its mounts..
If you pull away VERY gently the engine probably never even
starts to twist so no oscillation is set in motion? If you pull
away VERY quickly the engine DOES twist as hard as it can and
stays hard over because you are applying power..so again no
oscillation can start.. I would suggest a large RSJ good luck
Willie

Ray: I'm surprised to hear that modern euro-boxes suffer from clutch judder, but if the problem is with the clutch plate itself, then I suppose anything could. The body noise, as you suspect is not a problem and only really noticable at below 2000 RPM, from 2000 to 7000 the engine / carb / exhaust noise deafens you anyway!! besides which I can put up with the noise if it means that the infernal juddering dissapears!!!

Yes, the clutch was brand new when fitted, and so was the gearbox and engine. And being as I was running everything in at the time I took it very easy with the clutch.

Willie: Interesting suggestion about the mini bottom engine / gearbox to subframe mount, I think I may have one still lying about from the mini days....

Ha Ha.....I like the RSJ suggestion, if I can't cure the juddering then I may use one to threaten the car with!!!!


Thanks for all your suggestions guys, you have been very helpful.

I'll keep you updated as to the solution, but it may be a while as I am in the process of restoring my very rusty '78 MG B GT at the mo........ it never ends!!!

Cam.

Don't be surprised! Engine mounting technology has improved, allowing the use of softer mounts to reduce noise, but as with all things there is a trade off against functionality.
Fortunately these days, most problems are found with computer simulations, but it is still common to do a lot of investigation into that kind of thing before a car is signed off for mass production.

I guessed you would have treated the clutch respectfully as you were careful not to abuse the rebuilt engine. There's still a possibility that the clutch assembly is defective, but only a remote one.