Morris Minor Owners Club

Nice to know someone else thinks my idea for an electric minor isn't a waste of time

Since we're planning a move to Canada we'll hopefully have the space for wind generation ;)

There's actually a UK based EV converters too - but yes, there are loads of decent quality resources out there aren't there?

Perhaps we should get together on the EV thing for your mini and my minor!

Multiphonikks wrote: [...] And people can argue at me that an electric car just transferrs the pollution elsewhere (a valid argument) but of course an electric generating power station is more efficient than a one-litre A series!

Whether a power station itself is more or less efficient at turning dino into motion is only part of the equation - There's also transmission losses to bear in mind (there's a lot of power used/ lost getting the juice from the turbines to your sockets) as well as losses associated with lugging the stored fuel around with you. How heavy is a battery pack (that will allow a useable range and speed)? And how heavy is the equivalent energy in chemical form?

You're using new, resource intensive to manufacture parts to replace perfectly serviceable already paid off their "carbon debt" parts, and these new parts require a more lossy source of energy that weighs pretty much the same when exhausted as when full. A conversion to biomass would require either a s/h diesel engine (not new, as that once again has the manufacturing costs) or a bit of tweaking to run on alcohol (not currently viable in this country as far as I know). Both would be far cheaper, far more practical (IMO), and more than likely far far more "green" (in this country at any rate).

Maybe in a country where the bulk of electricity is generated by renewable means the green side would be very different, but to me you're doing something interesting, probably even fun - But pounds and pollutants per mile I'm less than convinced of the benefits. All the more so if you have to phone the RAC if your "tanks run dry" in the middle of nowhere!

Packedup wrote:

Multiphonikks wrote: [...] And people can argue at me that an electric car just transferrs the pollution elsewhere (a valid argument) but of course an electric generating power station is more efficient than a one-litre A series!

Whether a power station itself is more or less efficient at turning dino into motion is only part of the equation - There's also transmission losses to bear in mind (there's a lot of power used/ lost getting the juice from the turbines to your sockets) as well as losses associated with lugging the stored fuel around with you. How heavy is a battery pack (that will allow a useable range and speed)? And how heavy is the equivalent energy in chemical form?

You're using new, resource intensive to manufacture parts to replace perfectly serviceable already paid off their "carbon debt" parts, and these new parts require a more lossy source of energy that weighs pretty much the same when exhausted as when full. A conversion to biomass would require either a s/h diesel engine (not new, as that once again has the manufacturing costs) or a bit of tweaking to run on alcohol (not currently viable in this country as far as I know). Both would be far cheaper, far more practical (IMO), and more than likely far far more "green" (in this country at any rate).

Maybe in a country where the bulk of electricity is generated by renewable means the green side would be very different, but to me you're doing something interesting, probably even fun - But pounds and pollutants per mile I'm less than convinced of the benefits. All the more so if you have to phone the RAC if your "tanks run dry" in the middle of nowhere!

I hate it when people don't read my posts. As I said, my plans for Hebe as an EV mean that I will be using her within a very small local radius.

Secondly, Batteries and motors are far more efficient than an engine

And while I think biomass is better than petrol there's still the issue of carbon burning and the additional oil required for an engine to run.

I was hoping I'd get support rather than ridicule for trying this. :/

Multiphonikks wrote:
I hate it when people don't read my posts. As I said, my plans for Hebe as an EV mean that I will be using her within a very small local radius. [/quiote]

So more stop start than constant speed cruising then? Hardly an improvement if you think of all that weight you've got to keep lugging around!

Secondly, Batteries and motors are far more efficient than an engine

In terms of pure conversion to kinetic energy no doubt - But carrying fuel tanks that weigh as much empty as full isn't great for efficiency on the road, and the matter of where the power comes from (and how it gets from there to here) makes a huge difference to the efficiency side of things. Last time I looked into it transmission losses (ie losses from source to use) were actually higher for electricity!

And while I think biomass is better than petrol there's still the issue of carbon burning and the additional oil required for an engine to run. [/quote]

If done properly biomass should be net zero carbon - And oil wise we were managing fine with natural sources before we started digging holes in teh ground (though those sources were often whales, which I deplore and hope we never even contemplate again). I can't see any reason why modified plant oils shouldn't be up to the job.

It's all a matter of cost though - While it's still so comparatively cheap to drill a big hole and bottle the stuff that comes out of it, we're not going to get environmentally friendly transport solutions Electric could be viable if we actually created our power through green means (but at present there's far too many people who don't want a biomass plant or windfarm on their doorstep, even if they do want cheap power for all their toys), biomass IMO is a far better idea but would require investment to get started, and financial incentives from the government... It's all a bit pants at this point in time, IMO.

I was hoping I'd get support rather than ridicule for trying this. :/

I personally think you're barking up the wrong tree environmentally (and cost wise if the governement decide to tax electricity for road useage as they do other fuels, even aside from build costs), but that doesn't mean I'm ridiculing you. I think it's an intersting project, and will result in a car that's probably quite different (and possibly actually rather nice) to drive, I just don't see electric power as the answer to the looming cost, environmental and availability issues of oil.

Well I can see the sense in this and it is viable. You CAN also use totally green elecricity if you change your tariff.

I am a scientist involved directly in this area and know more than many people about the subject.

I say go for it! I'm just going to be using mine, (like most do), for journeys of no more than 20 miles in total.

With a few solar panels and an urban wind generator, you can run the car for free even in the UK, my cottage is tiny, and I manage to generate 70% of my own power and all my hot water and heating from renewables, wood and solar/wind energy.

http://www.d400.co.uk/index.html

I'm also the editor of a brand new mini magazine, (launching winter this year),with loads of A series stuff, and the mini will be featured as part of our sustainable classics program, including a methanol powered race car

PM me if I can be of any help.

Cheers for the link - V. interesting (and no, that ISN'T sarcasm )

Excellent read. We have a lot of very big wind mills like that, but the noise they make is almost deafening.
Renewable energy is the way to go, even if only to keep more petrol to run our cars...

And Nikki, you seem to have thought it out quite well, so please do proceed with the idea! I am 100% for it!

I think this is a great idea! I'd just decided to do the same with mine. I would argue that modern electric cars have the ability to outperform many- most internal combustion cars. Those who are scepticsl, search for tesla cars on google. 0-60 in under four seconds, 160 mph and a 200 mile range, if memory serves. The car beats a lamborghini, and for far, far less money! And although a new engine is cheaper than a new electric system, think of all the service work- replacing all those worn parts- that you'd never have to do. I'm sold on this.

There was a Co in Canada converting Renault Dauphines (!!!!) to leccy power. It make a lot more sense in UK where road fuel is taxed to the heavens - in USA/Canada it's almost given away free!

I don't know what happened to the Multi car - no reports for a while.
Here's the link to the Tesla http://www.teslamotors.com/ and Zenn http://www.zenncars.com/

I just don't see electric power as the answer to the looming cost, environmental and availability issues of oil.

Hiya, I dont see the logic here and TwincamTurbo52 is correct, you can now opt to purchase electricity from renewable sources; I have mine. At present I believe the only 100% renewable supplier (and non-nuclear) is Good Energy (http://www.good-energy.co.uk/). The more people choose to use electricity sourced from renewables the more it becomes commercially viable and the more money is pumped back into renewables and so on.

Multiphonikks - keep on truckin

TwincamTurbo52 wrote:
With a few solar panels and an urban wind generator, you can run the car for free even in the UK, my cottage is tiny, and I manage to generate 70% of my own power and all my hot water and heating from renewables, wood and solar/wind energy.

http://www.d400.co.uk/index.html

you can get something similar - 1KW ones - at B&Q these days. Not that cheap mind.

I was flirting with the going down the EV route with my moggy
a while back, though I never managed to raise the money to
do it. I am surprised you need the gearbox but you've obviously
done a huge amount of research into this.

In all good luck with the project!

Hello Kirsten,

I don't know how you can select to buy only 'renewable source electricity', as the UK electricity supply is one big system, and also is connected to the French grid (or it was) to allow import\export of power when the system load peaks varied.
I personally feel that the wind farm idea is not anywhere as green as people may think. Certainly the fuel is free but the resources to manufacture, locate and build what are relatively tiny generators, install a switching and transforming station etc takes a vast amount of material and energy to do. There is talk of offshore wind farms which would make the unit cost even higher. I'm told, also, that their duty cycle is low, somewhere in the order of 30%.
I used to work in a relatively modest manufacturing plant (circa 600 workforce and the plant's site load was in the order of 26 Megawatt, pretty much 24 hours a day and 365 days a year) I wonder how large a wind farm would be needed to run just this one factory?

Alec

Multiphonikks wrote:When we took out the Gearbox from Hebe the bellhousing broke off at the top (near where the two top bolts are for location onto the engine).

Does anyone know if any minor parts places would allow me to exchange for a recon gearbox if the gearbox is broken?


Nikki

I've a couple of spare gearboxes so you are more then welcome to one for free if any use to you.
One is unknown condition but other drove OK.

Paul Humphries,
Werrington,
Stoke-on-Trent

Alec,
it works like this, subscribe to a green supplier (in my case the RSPB which helps out the birds too) for every KW of electricity used here and billed they in turn put 1 KW of 100% renewable back into the grid which they source from wind farms etc.

Even a lot of people who generate thier own electricity are still connected to 'the grid' and any surplus you generate in good conditions goes back into the mains, so when its windy you have excess, when its not you draw from the mains almost using it like a battery bank in simple terms (even though its not).

Trouble is in good ole rip off britain theres very little incentive to do this financially, the money you get per unit putting back excess is rarely what you pay to draw units. Some countries have made this different i.e. you get more than cost for your green energy - so when the meter is going backwards you are making a sheckle.
If this was changed in the UK it would do a massive amount to encourage people to self generate.
Unfortunately a manufactured wind gen unit is costly (you can build from scratch a unit equivalent to a £1k manufactured one for under £200), still unproven for bomb proof long term reliability/maintenance issues + they sting you quite badly for the qualified electrician grid tie hook up installation, as i say little incentive unless your very green minded and have lots of money to spare.

If the system was changed imagine that every house here would have one, being so windy you'd soon be in profit.

Orkney wrote:

Unfortunately a manufactured wind gen unit is costly (you can build from scratch a unit equivalent to a £1k manufactured one for under £200),

It's like a lot of things the more people use / buy / install then the cheaper they will get.
We are still at the "learning" stage so prices are still high for solar panels, wind tubines and such.
Biggest problem I've found is energy storage but good secondhand (but guaranteed) UPS batteries have solved that.
When I bought the first wind turbine for my friends farm I paid £150 for a secondhand Rutland that produced 40 watts.
This was around 10 year ago and it's still working without any maintenance needed since.
My friend was so impressed he lashed out on 2 x 600 watt turbines from USA for less than £1000 the pair.
Already you can see the cost per watt was cheaper.
Same applied to solar panels.
I don't have any exact costs as I prefer wind power but know the first setup my friend bought was far dearer and lower output than the last set he got.
It's like a lot of things - they get cheaper over time.
Just remember video recorders.
Our first was £700+ and you had to rent as they cost so much (say about 1/3 cost of new small car). The last one cost me £39 and I gave it away as not used now we have DVD recorder.


Paul Humphries

Hello Paul,

I'm sorry but you miss my point, I think,
It can only be feasible at very low uptake to the scheme, as the vast majority of power generated is from coal\gas\nuclear.
Wind power for individual consumers is easily practical but it is far more complex a system to utilise wind power commercially and as I said not as green as it may appear.
Surely, also, to connect your generated power to your electricity supplier with a view to exporting surlus power takes a complex control system to protect both your generator and the supply authority's system?
At the factory I mentioned, there was two six megawatt generators but they were not allowed to export surplus power to the grid.

Alec

paulhumphries wrote:Biggest problem I've found is energy storage but good secondhand (but guaranteed) UPS batteries have solved that.

I remember talking to a UPS manufacturer a few years ago about battery life (I work in IT). He said they sold two grades of lead acid storage battery - the cheap ones nearly everyone uses are guaranteed for five years, but they also sold more expensive ones that were guaranteed to last twenty years.

Alec wrote:Surely, also, to connect your generated power to your electricity supplier with a view to exporting surlus power takes a complex control system to protect both your generator and the supply authority's system?

Yes, it's called a grid connect inverter and they're getting gradually cheaper to buy.

Alec wrote:Hello Paul,

I'm sorry but you miss my point, I think,


Alec

Very probably

What I was saying wasn't a reply but rather my opinion.
Alternative energy is in it's infancy.
At the moment it's not deemed as viable by a lot of people due to limitations which is perfectly true.
Over time this will change so what we think now maybe completey different in 10 years time.

Think of oil exploration.
They are now extracting deposits they have known about for ages yet in the past decided it was going to be too dear to be commecially cost effective.
Pick silly made up figures -
When discovered oil selling for $15 per barrel worked out at $20 to extract but elsewhere it was only $10 so not viable and left in the ground.
Economy changes so the $10 to extract oil is now selling for $50 hence now worth extracting the $20 per barrel oil too.

I predict something similar will happen to alternative energy and economics will force it to be more widely used no matter what the anti's (I don't mean you) say purely because there is little choice.
Not now or even in next few years but certainly within my lifetime.

Paul Humphries