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Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 10:19 am
by geoberni
The Scotmoose wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 7:26 am Hi there folks. I had minor problem with fuel pump (sticky points) and have considered that at Monty's age (56) I might just change the fuel pump complete and have looked at SU vs Hardi on the ESM website (I trust ESM and am sure they will be selling the correct Hardi pump to suit the pressure needs of the Morris Minor). Financially, the Hardi is less than half price of the SU (I am negative earth these days - apologies to purists - Negative earth SU pump approx £25 even more expensive than positive earth one!), which has immediately has made me worry about the quality of the Hardi pumps. The SU certainly looks a more robust item. I then saw the full repair kit and wondered about restoring my SU - is it so very difficult? Then just to throw a spanner in the works there is an electronic conversion kit, which would take away the points side of things. I notice there are no repair kits for the Hardi, which would seem to make it a throw away item. Although, like everyone else, I have to mind the pennies, I am inclined to think that if I have any further problems, the easiest option will be to just go the whole hog and get a new SU pump, not for originality, but for dependabilty.
Although ESM are generally seen as trustworthy (I've got no complaints about their service but there's been some disgruntled rumblings recently on facebook about their Customer Support), the fact is that Hardi do not make a pump with as low a delivery pressure as the SU. Their lowest pressure pump is almost twice the pressure of the SU.
Like any other business, ESM are seeking to sell to customers; Hardi market the pump as suitable, ESM aren't going to question it.

Yes there are SU electronic ones which do away with the points; my personal view is that if the electronic one fails, a tap on the top to free a sticky set of points isn't going to get it working. Therefore I prefer the traditional arrangement.
The overhaul kit is quite easy to use and there are videos on youtube of people overhauling the SU.

The simple fact is that the SU fuel pump is probably the most ignored item on the car. People work on engines, gearboxes, all manner of items, but few think to check the points on their fuel pump or even check the inbuilt filter, until it starts misbehaving.
The SU is an excellent bit of kit, it just needs a little bit of love every so often.... :roll:

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 10:36 am
by svenedin
The SU pump is undoubtedly expensive but it is still made in Salisbury, England probably in exactly the same way as it always has been (Burlen bought the SU tooling). They are very robust pumps and I have successfully brought back really dreadful looking pre-war SU pumps to perfect working order which shows how durable they are. Fully overhauling an SU fuel pump is not difficult but requires patience and a clean, well lit working area. You will also need some BA sockets or a small adjustable spanner and feeler gauges. They are some good Youtube videos you can watch.

I use my Morris year round. My garage is damp and I found that the points version of the SU had a tendency to misbehave on cold, damp mornings. I converted a pump (I have quite a few of them) to electronic with the kit a few years back and performance has been absolutely faultless. As Berni says, if the electronic unit fails that's it whereas you would probably be able to coax a points back to good enough to get you home. The other disadvantage with the electronic version is that it is polarity sensitive. My car is positive earth but if I ever wanted to change to negative earth I would have to change the electronic module which is expensive. If you are already negative earth the chances of you wanting to go back are practically zero so this is not an issue. One thing to note is that if the pump is very old and has two black wires to the coil, Burlen do not recommend conversion to electronic.

Stephen

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 1:47 pm
by myoldjalopy
A long time ago, I had an SU pump that was failing. Giving it a clout got it going again but it kept failing with increasing frequency. In the end, I had to stop every two or three miles to give the pump a whack! PITA on a busy A-road! Eventually, I tried cleaning the points but they were too far gone and only replacement of the points cured the issue. Moral of the story - once the points start playing up, they will continue to do so. I shouldn't have ignored the problem for so long, but I was young and foolish in those days and knew next to nothing about car maintenance :-?
As insurance, I now keep a spare pump fitted with new points in the boot.

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Tue May 28, 2024 9:22 pm
by The Scotmoose
Thank you guys for getting back. So far I have been lucky and Monty has kept on working and I have started saving my pennies. Going to put a new SU and get the kit for the one I have so I have a spare. It is great the amount of knowledge and experience we have here and I for one am grateful for any advice I receive.

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Wed May 29, 2024 9:29 am
by geoberni
Your response above caused me to re-read your past comments.
I don't get this remark...
The Scotmoose wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 7:26 am (I am negative earth these days - apologies to purists - Negative earth SU pump approx £25 even more expensive than positive earth one!),
An SU Electronic Pump, Positive or Negative, are both around £200.

An SU Points Pump, which is not polarity conscious, is around £170.

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Thu May 30, 2024 5:21 pm
by The Scotmoose
I think that I will go down the line of new SU "points" pump. That click click is somehow reassuring that it is actually working.

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 10:09 am
by myoldjalopy
Quite so - as long as you can hear it over the noise of the engine and the various squeaks, creaks, rattles and clonks from the rest of the car! :lol:

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 11:32 am
by oliver90owner
myoldjalopy wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 10:09 am Quite so - as long as you can hear it over the noise of the engine and the various squeaks, creaks, rattles and clonks from the rest of the car! :lol:
No real problem. One would generally be satisfied it is operational before starting the engine each day. The ‘click click’ - and then nothing - demonstrates it is working and that neither the carburettor is being overfilled nor the pump not attaining regulated pressure for some other reason.

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 12:58 pm
by myoldjalopy
My remark was in the nature of a very light-hearted joke. But to address your point, the fact that the pump ticks on turning on the ignition is no guarantee that it will continue to do so during driving, a fact that I and many others have learnt through previous experience....... :-?

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 6:42 pm
by oliver90owner
the fact that the pump ticks on turning on the ignition is no guarantee that it will continue to do so during driving

Agreed, but no different to the engine, gearbox, rear axle suspension, etc failing while driving. Few things go wrong while the vehicle is parked overnight - but those few can prevent the car operating correctly, of course. The ticking of the fuel pump is a fairly definite indication that the pump has not failed overnight,

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2024 10:43 am
by olonas
I do have an electronic pump fitted (S.U. pos. earth) and that does still have the reassuring clicking at ignition on and when driving.
However, as an indication of my faith in that pump 8) I still carry the working points pump, it replaced, in the boot. :roll:

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2025 8:26 pm
by Harryhotrod
My Hardi pump just failed, ESM told me it only has a 1 year warranty as I bought it in 2023 but Hardi told me it's a 2 year warranty and will replace it

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2025 8:45 pm
by svenedin
Harryhotrod wrote: Wed Jul 30, 2025 8:26 pm My Hardi pump just failed, ESM told me it only has a 1 year warranty as I bought it in 2023 but Hardi told me it's a 2 year warranty and will replace it
It's good that Hardi are replacing the pump under warranty but not very encouraging to hear that it failed after such a short time. There are SU electric pumps that are still going (with maintenance of course) from pre-WW2.

Stephen

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2025 10:33 am
by mike1864
ESM tell me that they have more returns with SU's than with Hardi. But -certainly with brake cylinders - I find that different people at ESM have different opinions about their range of products.
I bought a Hardi at the '24 National as a spare, but later read all the stuff about it being too high a pressure, and not serviceable.
Plus - as no-one has mentioned - the Hardi has no input filter. On my SU I check and clean this at least once a year, and am pleased that at least some of the crud isn't getting to the diaphragm or carb.
It's too late to return the Hardi to ESM.
But I think I'll renovate my other (SU) spare!
A good warranty is no consolation when you're broken down in Lane 1 of a Smart (sic) motorway! Or anywhere else.

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2025 10:50 am
by svenedin
I do carry a spare SU that I rebuilt before I went on Minors on Tour to Europe. It is quicker to swap the pump out for a good one than mess about at the side of the road unless it is just cleaning the points. I hypothesise that ESM get SU returns because people don't follow the instructions and clean the points before first use. Like points elsewhere (e.g distributor, RB106) the unit may have sat on the shelf for a long time and so it will need the points to be cleaned before first use or if left unused for a long time. The points in the fuel pump don't just open and close, they also have a "wiping" action (there is some sliding) so in theory, regular use keeps them clean. AUA 66 pumps in need of full overhaul are often available for around £10 so if you are prepared to sit and patiently rebuild a pump you can have a pump as good as brand new for much less than the cost of a new pump. Admittedly though, the rebuild kits are quite expensive now (around £65). Jobs like that are winter jobs for me. Nice and warm in the house rebuilding small components when it is cold and dark outside.

Stephen

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2025 5:35 pm
by myoldjalopy
Yes, and like many others I also carry a spare SU pump in the boot. Probably a good idea though to check it periodically though. With reference to Stephen's comments above about the damp, I do keep the spare well wrapped up in cloth and then a plastic bag. The wiping action of the points does help I think and, TBH, I've only had pump problems twice in over 40 years of Minor ownership - and that was two different cars/pumps, so they are pretty damn reliable.

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2025 6:54 pm
by geoberni
I've seen this quote a couple of times, probably on different versions of the same blog/article circulating on different websites in the MG Classic world.
S.U. electric fuel pumps are amongst the most reliable fuel pumps found on older cars
providing they are properly serviced and maintained. When supplied new with MGs
they could be expected to easily outlive the engine without adjustment. Our cars and
all their components are now well past their design life, yet many of us are still using
original fuel pumps. They will still operate, albeit unreliably, with eroded and
incorrectly set contacts, poorly adjusted diaphragms and partially blocked filters.
Often a sharp tap will restore a stalled pump to life for another month. This ability to
just about keep working with no maintenance, has unfairly given the product a
reputation for poor reliability.

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2025 7:54 am
by Harryhotrod
Hardi also suggest a filter after fuel tank but not from pump to carb as it works on back pressure.
From my racing background I think the fuel system could be better, probably not the best to pull the fuel from a long way back, mine is a modified 1275 so maybe a bit more heat just below the pump area and it was a hot day . Just a bit disappointed with esm.

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2025 11:24 am
by geoberni
Harryhotrod wrote: Fri Aug 01, 2025 7:54 am Hardi also suggest a filter after fuel tank but not from pump to carb as it works on back pressure.
From my racing background I think the fuel system could be better, probably not the best to pull the fuel from a long way back, mine is a modified 1275 so maybe a bit more heat just below the pump area and it was a hot day . Just a bit disappointed with esm.
Well dare I suggest that the system was designed for the car they were building, as works fine in those circumstances.
If Morris had altered it by fitting a 1275, perhaps the extra demand on the fuel system would have resulted in other relevant changes.
That's what often comes with Owner Modifications, few people consider the bigger picture.
You've identified that for your circumstances, it 'could be better'; so perhaps your installation might benefit from a rear mounted HP pump, rather than the forward mounted LP one... :-?

Re: Electric Fuel Pump SU v Hardi

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2025 11:51 am
by oliver90owner
geoberni wrote: Fri Aug 01, 2025 11:24 am Well dare I suggest that the system was designed for the car they were building, as works fine in those circumstances.
If Morris had altered it by fitting a 1275, perhaps the extra demand on the fuel system would have resulted in other relevant changes.
That's what often comes with Owner Modifications, few people consider the bigger picture.
You've identified that for your circumstances, it 'could be better'; so perhaps your installation might benefit from a rear mounted HP pump, rather than the forward mounted LP one... :-?
Well said! You won’t find PTH moaning about the standard items, even though his was set up for racing.

Back in the ‘70’s, I modified my ex-Panda Ford Escort (bought as cheap as possible from auction) into a car that surprised an awful lot of people.

But every mod (there wasn’t much left original other than the basic body shell) was considered with extra safety in mind. Better handling, more than adequate braking were priorities, as the engine/transmission was improved.

The minor was designed as transport for the masses. It has worked in that segment for the whole of its life span. There was never a “GT” version on sale.