Morris Minor Owners Club

liammonty wrote:

kennatt wrote:

]Doing just one mile an hour over 30 now becomes an offence in a 30 mile an hour zone

From what I've read on it, totally agree with Kennatt. The offence is no different, it's the fines that have changed. Enforcement is still discretionary (within limits - no pun intended) as it always has been.

Yes I do realise now that the speeding 'offences' are in fact the same as before but it is the 'fines' that have substantially changed and particularly so on the two higher bands . (Indeed it is the prosecuting authority in question have the new set of changed rules) having been mislead by a number of 'informed' drivers reading hyped up media stories to the contrary.

In our particular area the Police authorities have an extensively publicised 'project' named 'No Excuse' with regular temporary road signs 'advertising/publicising' this throughout the county. Senior police officers with name/rank have been quoted in the local press and radio that 'Project No Excuse' has an ' absolutely zero tolerance policy' and will be in particular actively targeting three areas - mobile device use , non vehicle insurance and speeding offences.. This will include the increased allocation time of mobile speed/safety camera units. I only wondered what may happen if your vehicle speedometer was mis-reading and the local force literally applied a zero tolerance policy as soon as their equipment readings gave a reading with the extra 1MPH over. What happens to this discretionary 10% margin and is it fair and reasonable to still include this in what is stated as 'zero tolerance' (I don't know)
Who actually makes the decision within the police I wonder and therefor given the authority to use the 10% discretionary factor, I wonder if there is a written guide to police authorities and is this discretion also officially extended given to magistrates?
I know the best policy is to keep within the speed limits as many have already stated but it seems many drivers of older cars particularly in our area say they are a bit concerned with the accuracy of their speedos with the interpretation of Zero Tolerance when the local press emphasise that you are breaking the speed limit in a 30mph limit as soon as you are actually recorded doing 1 mile an hour higher.

Zero tolerance would include faulty speedos.

It is not that people's speedometers are faulty it is just that they are per se inaccurate from model to model and car to car. That is why the statutory allowance of plus or minus 10% was introduced.

Of course it matters not what speed your speedometer says you were doing, what matters is what speed the police speedo - recently calibrated on a rolling road and / or vascar / laser type radar gun, says you were doing. I would never accept these readings, as many police forces do not bother to calibrate any of their devices as they are supposed to and as part of the prosecution case, they are required to disclose to you the calibration and maintenance history of the device that they are relying on. NB most police cars are not equipped with a calibrated speedo.

9 times out of 10, if you plead not guilty - if indeed you are not guilty, they will not be able to show that their devices were properly and recently calibrated and therefore are no more reliable than your speedo. The Clown Persecution Service will then likely as not, drop the matter.

Of course none of this is any help at all if one was doing above the 10% leeway i.e. 45 in a 30 or 100 on a motorway, in which case hanging, drawing and quartering is far too good for the offending driver.

firedrake1942 wrote:It is not that people's speedometers are faulty it is just that they are per se inaccurate from model to model and car to car. That is why the statutory allowance of plus or minus 10% was introduced.

Of course it matters not what speed your speedometer says you were doing, what matters is what speed the police speedo - recently calibrated on a rolling road and / or vascar / laser type radar gun, says you were doing. I would never accept these readings, as many police forces do not bother to calibrate any of their devices as they are supposed to and as part of the prosecution case, they are required to disclose to you the calibration and maintenance history of the device that they are relying on. NB most police cars are not equipped with a calibrated speedo.

9 times out of 10, if you plead not guilty - if indeed you are not guilty, they will not be able to show that their devices were properly and recently calibrated and therefore are no more reliable than your speedo. The Clown Persecution Service will then likely as not, drop the matter.

Of course none of this is any help at all if one was doing above the 10% leeway i.e. 45 in a 30 or 100 on a motorway, in which case hanging, drawing and quartering is far too good for the offending driver.

HAHAHA 100 in a morris 1000 ??? I think you could be safe arguing that one....lol OK I know that you are using it as an example but couldn't resist the image of the look on the Traffic Officer's face when he pulls you over and asks if you know what speed you were doing....

firedrake1942 wrote:It is not that people's speedometers are faulty it is just that they are per se inaccurate from model to model and car to car. That is why the statutory allowance of plus or minus 10% was introduced.

Of course it matters not what speed your speedometer says you were doing, what matters is what speed the police speedo - recently calibrated on a rolling road and / or vascar / laser type radar gun, says you were doing. I would never accept these readings, as many police forces do not bother to calibrate any of their devices as they are supposed to and as part of the prosecution case, they are required to disclose to you the calibration and maintenance history of the device that they are relying on. NB most police cars are not equipped with a calibrated speedo.

9 times out of 10, if you plead not guilty - if indeed you are not guilty, they will not be able to show that their devices were properly and recently calibrated and therefore are no more reliable than your speedo. The Clown Persecution Service will then likely as not, drop the matter.

Of course none of this is any help at all if one was doing above the 10% leeway i.e. 45 in a 30 or 100 on a motorway, in which case hanging, drawing and quartering is far too good for the offending driver.

Inclined to mostly agree with all that but would question the 'minus 10%' bit when related to new cars.
Regarding regulations (UNCE +EU Construction of use ) for new car manufacturers speedometer calibration allowance being a statutory plus or minus 10% ? The construction of use regulations indicate only that a speedometer can be permitted to read into the plus but not into the minus. Production of UK vehicles are covered (in brief) by the following "The speedometer must never show an indicated speed of 'less' than the actual speed, it can however show "over"
The actual present UK allowance over (according to published figures) can surprisingly legally go up to 110% of actual true speed +6.25mph
For example for the manufactures to be within required legislation - If a vehicle is travelling at 50mph the speedometer must never show 'less' than 50mph or show 'more' than 61.25mph.

You are more up to date with the Con and Use regs than me !

I was caught doing 36mph in a 30mph road whilst driving my 1929 Austin seven. The speedo usually reads between 30 and 40. He must have been hiding because I never saw him. I got a speed awareness course and it caused some amusement when I took it to the course. The very first sevens never had a speedo. Actually the course was quite informative.

The ass of chief police officers speed enforcement guideline 20 16 give advice to forces in uk that there should be a 10% +2mph discretion for speed up to 66mph and 10%+3%, over that,so 30 limit over 35 you will be 'done ' so to speak. 10% in the view that its dangerous to be constantly staring at the speedo instead of concentrating 100% on the road ahead,and the 2mph and 3% for device error ,ie on hand held or roadside cameras.
However they state that this guidance does not take away the discretion from the Police .for instance outside schools in busy high street etc.
In Scotland they adopted a zero tolerance,and gave written warnings ,for first offence and prosecuted for second time caught.No sure if still the case it was an experiment. I believe Kent also had the same in a 30 limit.
Most forces still adhere to these guidelines,In a former life as a traffic Sergeant,we had a stretch of main arterial road which had a 50 limit,because of the number of junctions,but our prosecution false limit was 60mph, all the locals knew this and traveled at an indicated 59. It was and always will be contentious. One day ,no doubt they will come up with a more accurate system...............knowing the way the police are going these days will probably be a robot,with accurate sat nav....30.1mph....10000 fine and car confiscated

Got caught on the A9,just south of Inverness in 1991. An unmarked car and to be fair I was a bit over. 2 days driving up and a boat to rendezvous with on the Caledonian Canal.
The officer was really nice,and I reckon he would have let me off until he cottoned on that I was English. Then he wasn't nice anymore. It was quite near to Culloden, and I know that is still a sore point with some Scots.

kennatt wrote:The ass of chief police officers speed enforcement guideline 20 16 give advice to forces in uk that there should be a 10% +2mph discretion for speed up to 66mph and 10%+3%, over that,so 30 limit over 35 you will be 'done ' so to speak. 10% in the view that its dangerous to be constantly staring at the speedo instead of concentrating 100% on the road ahead,and the 2mph and 3% for device error ,ie on hand held or roadside cameras.
However they state that this guidance does not take away the discretion from the Police .for instance outside schools in busy high street etc.
In Scotland they adopted a zero tolerance,and gave written warnings ,for first offence and prosecuted for second time caught.No sure if still the case it was an experiment. I believe Kent also had the same in a 30 limit.
Most forces still adhere to these guidelines,In a former life as a traffic Sergeant,we had a stretch of main arterial road which had a 50 limit,because of the number of junctions,but our prosecution false limit was 60mph, all the locals knew this and traveled at an indicated 59. It was and always will be contentious. One day ,no doubt they will come up with a more accurate system...............knowing the way the police are going these days will probably be a robot,with accurate sat nav....30.1mph....10000 fine and car confiscated

That's an interesting way of describing the ACPO at the very start , was that just as an abbreviation, literal, slightly intentional, or otherwise,

They are not called ACPO anymore! They have 'rebranded' as The National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC) stll rubbish tho' !

was going to also put hole,but knew mods would have a fit. they certainly were up to my escape(With a pension of course ) in 1999.

I take my hat off to you ! I only went over the wall in 2014. I intend to avoid the Grim Reaper until I have as many years out as in !

kennatt wrote:was going to also put hole,but knew mods would have a fit. they certainly were up to my escape(With a pension of course ) in 1999.

And there I was, just about to apologise to you in case you had felt I was slightly lowering the tone

Have now done 24 out so only another 6 to have more out than in.

That makes you 89. . Or is that 71?

Possibly 71 / 72 if joined at 18 and did the 30 years (Now it is 40 for a rubbish pension) I was 22 when joined , did 31 and a bit........ Might have been a gadget of course ....

What I find impressive and noteworthy when I visit GB is the Attention given by many authorities to physical road safety. For example, at the start of populated Areas , and before the 30 ( = 48km/hr for me)warning sign. I see White (or sometimes) a red raised bitmac area in stripes to provide an early warning. Sometimes a sort of chicane is built in, or even a roundabout. These measures provide a natural Speed check.

In Holland, nearly every small town entrance also seems to have a different road surface, - any Thing to remind the Driver to reduce Speed.

Our local authorties, nearly always short of cash, just put up a 50 (km/hr)sign and by that consider they have done their duty on traffic safety. Periodically, Radar Speed traps lurk not far away to finance the sign post! You also have solid White lines , sometimes double for some reason to indicate no overtaking. We just have the normal sign which applies until cancelled which may be 10km or more later, by which time you have forgotton that it existed. The road marking is normally just the same as ever, dotted lines. In some places you might see a solid lne but that is just luck - in short , inconsistant.

No, I think you have good effective traffic Management. Perhaps here and there, some exceptions only.

You are right, chicanes and traffic management measures are great for the morons who treat them as a challenge and try and throw their hot hatches thru 90 degrees at 60 mph, and try to prove that their souped-up, suspension lowered, noisy exhaust euro box can fly by taking speed ramps at a similar velocity. I don't mind them killing themselves but there are usually pedestrians and other road users around when they do it. AND it is very expensive to investigate. AND their nearest and dearest usually try and blame local authorities, teachers, social workers, police government, everybody but their evolutionarily challenged offspring for the carnage they have caused. Try clearing a FATACC up sometime! Sorry rant over .

firedrake1942 wrote:Possibly 71 / 72 if joined at 18 and did the 30 years (Now it is 40 for a rubbish pension) I was 22 when joined , did 31 and a bit........ Might have been a gadget of course ....

Ah well, better than the usual 50 years with, no doubt, a worse pension!