Morris Minor Owners Club

mowogg wrote:
Surely as a club we could do something about this? Could we not get an automotive engineer to correctly design and specify seat belt mounts, detailing what modification are required to provide suitable restraint in the event of a crash? I would envisage this being in the form of structural calculations, then detailing what plates/modifications are required. This would be of benefit to all members.

Any thoughts?

Ok for a standard ex factory body shell that has had no remedial work / new panels fitted.
The standard of DIY repair / welding is variable and unknown in most cases so the data / instructions regarding fitting seat belts is compromised and could be more dangerous than doing nothing.
Phil

So Phil, are you suggesting that people shouldn't bother fitting seatbelts, as without expert fitting knowledge to an un-repaired, factory-fresh bodyshell, they would likely be more dangerous than no belts?!!!

I think people need to be realistic. Of course a Minor isn't going to be anywhere near as safe as a modern car in the unfortunate event of an accident, but well-installed seatbelts are going to improve safety.

philthehill wrote:

mowogg wrote:
Surely as a club we could do something about this? Could we not get an automotive engineer to correctly design and specify seat belt mounts, detailing what modification are required to provide suitable restraint in the event of a crash? I would envisage this being in the form of structural calculations, then detailing what plates/modifications are required. This would be of benefit to all members.

Any thoughts?

Ok for a standard ex factory body shell that has had no remedial work / new panels fitted.
The standard of DIY repair / welding is variable and unknown in most cases so the data / instructions regarding fitting seat belts is compromised and could be more dangerous than doing nothing.
Phil

In the context of mowogs post above my reply is correct in that one specification does and will not fit all the variable that are to be found in a Minor body especially if it has been repaired.
So - If seat belts are going to be fitted they must be fitted correctly and the load bearing areas must be capable of accepting that load.
Who ever fits seats belts has a responsibility to ensure that they are fitted properly and are effective in use for those using them.
If the driver or their passenger(s) were injured as a result of badly fitted seat belts and/or the way the seat belts were fitted contributed to their injuries and/or death the responsibility/fault falls on the driver/owner of the vehicle.
Seat belt mountings other than those specified in the workshop manual should be avoided unless the person fitting the seat belt is competent to assess that the mounting(s) fulfill(s) all requirements and they takes full responsibility for its implementation and failure if it does fall short of the requirements.
Personally I would never give a specification for fitting a seat belt to a car/vehicle that has not had a factory specification given because that would make me vicariously liable.
Whilst that may seem like sidestepping the issue it is a fact that vicarious liability is a big issue these days.
Phil

philthehill wrote:If seat belts are going to be fitted they must be fitted correctly and the load bearing areas must be capable of accepting that load.
Who ever fits seats belts has a responsibility to ensure that they are fitted properly and are effective in use for those using them.

I think those two points go without saying, and I'm not disagreeing with that at all.

Do you advocate nobody fitting front belts to their early Minors, which had no belts fitted and indeed no mounting points to fit them to?

Having worked in a BMC garage pre and post seat belt legislation - I have fitted many seat belts to Morris Minors of all variants and ages in accordance with the BMC factory specifications contained in BMC Wksp Manual Section R34 onwards.
Those specifications do give instructions for retro fitting of seat belts to older models which did not have the seat belt mountings incorporated into the body (body numbers for both pre and post incorporations are contained in section R34).
If the seat belts are fitted correctly and in accordance with the instructions contained in Section R34 the person fitting the seat belt has carried out his duties/responsibilities correctly.
Moving away from those specifications is the problem and when doing so it need to be done with the utmost care and consideration to the end user and the letter of the law.

Phil

As above - madness to drive around without belts -but if you DIY it and don't follow the recommendations then the risk is ALL yours. Anyone else doing the job would be at risk of litigation in the event of a problem in an accident. And since none of the recommendations refer to fitting of child seats - you are very definitely on your own there, and hopefully common sense will prevail. Attaching anything to a folding seat would be obviously 'unwise' in my mind.

Honestly, there does seem to have been a fair bit of fear-mongering within this thread!
In my own humble opinion, a child seat compatible with a lap belt should probably be best secured by a lap belt. Properly tightened, a lap belt will be MUCH more secure holding the seat than the inertia-reel belts fitted to modern cars.

It is true that the rear seat back in a 1957 Minor is designed to tip forward but this can quite easily be secured so that it does not - if that is deemed a problem.

All the information within the workshop manual relates to the fitting of FRONT seatbelts. Most Morris Minor owners with children (and there are many) will be more interested in REAR seatbelt fitting. There is no factory approval for this simply because they hadn't been considered back then. It doesn't mean that rear belts cannot be perfectly satisfactorily fitted. My own children are grown up and drive their own cars now but we happily sourced and fitted rear belts in our Minor and carried them all over Great Britain and on foreign holidays too and would do so again. We are all aware that the huge 4x4s our streets are now littered with provide more occupant safety but it is up to each of us to assess risk and if we want to drive our children in a Morris Minor then we should be free to do so, fit seatbelts the best way we can and then use them .

As I am anonymous on here I can tell you without fear of Social Services knocking on our door, that we also took our children camping, swimming in the sea and allowed them to climb on trees, rocks, bicycles, donkeys and to eat food cooked by their Mother who didn't always abide by "best before" dates . What FUN we all had!

Fun! I'm all for that. And yes,it sometimes involves a little bit of risk.

ManyMinors wrote:Honestly, there does seem to have been a fair bit of fear-mongering within this thread!
In my own humble opinion, a child seat compatible with a lap belt should probably be best secured by a lap belt. Properly tightened, a lap belt will be MUCH more secure holding the seat than the inertia-reel belts fitted to modern cars.

It is true that the rear seat back in a 1957 Minor is designed to tip forward but this can quite easily be secured so that it does not - if that is deemed a problem.

All the information within the workshop manual relates to the fitting of FRONT seatbelts. Most Morris Minor owners with children (and there are many) will be more interested in REAR seatbelt fitting. There is no factory approval for this simply because they hadn't been considered back then. It doesn't mean that rear belts cannot be perfectly satisfactorily fitted. My own children are grown up and drive their own cars now but we happily sourced and fitted rear belts in our Minor and carried them all over Great Britain and on foreign holidays too and would do so again. We are all aware that the huge 4x4s our streets are now littered with provide more occupant safety but it is up to each of us to assess risk and if we want to drive our children in a Morris Minor then we should be free to do so, fit seatbelts the best way we can and then use them .

As I am anonymous on here I can tell you without fear of Social Services knocking on our door, that we also took our children camping, swimming in the sea and allowed them to climb on trees, rocks, bicycles, donkeys and to eat food cooked by their Mother who didn't always abide by "best before" dates . What FUN we all had!

Well said!!!

I totally disagree with the idea that a lap belt will safely secure a child seat. Do it properly - or carry the child in a modern car fitted with the correct child seat mount provision.

It's an interesting discussion.

I guess as adults, we must remember that children are completely innocent and unable to make these decisions for themselves.

It's important and goes without saying that we shouldn't blindly assume our hobby and pleasure is safe for everyone.

bmcecosse wrote:I totally disagree with the idea that a lap belt will safely secure a child seat.

Why? The owner states that his child seat is "compatible with a lap belt".

When my own children were young, we had a metal framed child seat (made by Britax I think). The seat had a built in harness to secure the child in the seat but the recommended way to secure the seat into the car was also by a lap belt. This held it completely secure if the belt was tight and was a much better arrangement than an inertia reel seat belt which allowed the seat to move around a great deal.

I doubt it's a modern car seat then - made to modern standards - since cars haven't been fitted with 'lap' belts for many many years......we all know better now.