Morris Minor Owners Club

So the question is, how come we're seeing so many modern boxes driving around with factory fitted driving lamps that operate oon dip beam?

they use their fog lights - fogs can come on with just side lights

But many drivers seem to use driving lights too - or perhaps it's just the oops I thought about typing a very naughty word's around here who deck out their powermax sheds with 28 lights under the bumper! Perhaps they're related to the kiddy up in Stranraer who tried to sue the police for harassment after they had stopped him for having italic script on his number plates (yet another pet hate of this MOG). He was, aparently, quite shocked when the court pointed out that it couldn't be harassment because it was, in fact, illegal....
a

My understanding is that driving lights are meant to be used in conjunction with main beam headlights to illuminate the road straight ahead and at a distance. As soon as headlights are dipped, eg. oncoming vehicle, and because the driving lights are not "dipable", they will extinguish if wired correctly.
Fog lights same rules apply as rear foglights, bad visibility (100m or less) only.
Spotlights do exactly that, aim at a spot to the side and in front, eg. kerb edge.
It used to be normal to have one foglight offside and spotlight nearside. In fog the foglight, sometimes amber, low wide flat beam, would penetrate the murk without glare or dazzle and the spotlight would be aimed at the kerb also without dazzling other drivers.
I would suggest that on modern cars these supplementary lights are officially classed as foglights, but the manufacturers call them, incorrectly, driving lights, hence the the ability for those characters to mistakenly be able to have them on with side or dipped head.

It used to be normal to have one foglight offside and spotlight nearside. In fog the foglight, sometimes amber, low wide flat beam, would penetrate the murk without glare or dazzle and the spotlight would be aimed at the kerb also without dazzling other drivers.

Oh, I am glad, cos that's hoe mine work

There seem to be an awful lot of numpties around here who think that weather conditions such as "cloud", "sun", "drizzle", and the current state of "darkness" all equal fog... How strange.... Worse are the fools who drive with their rear foglights on, for no ap)rrent reason... I'm going to lie down in a darkened room now, without any foglights... ;(

Hello Colin,
surely the minimum height for head lights was the reason that the Minor's lights were re-located above the wing from the front grille?

I am of the opinion that low level lights are a total waste of time despite virtually all modern cars having low level "fog lamps" which half the population seem to use as soon as it is dark. The problem is geometric, the lower the lamp, the nearer horizontal it needs to be aimed to illuminate even a relatively short distance in front of the car. This is not a problem, particularly for the unfortunate oncoming traffic, if all roads were level and had no brows etc, but as they have, the lower the light the more dazzle.
Have you ever seen modern rally cars with low level lights?

I'm sure that my idea of using full beams when I can in mist and fog (which is rare these days) will find a lot of detractors, but I maintain that I can spot objects quicker than if I use dip, and just I ignore the admitted reflection that you get off main beams.

Alec

Alec wrote:Hello Colin,
surely the minimum height for head lights was the reason that the Minor's lights were re-located above the wing from the front grille?

That was the US specs not ours though, being as the cars were produced mainly for that market.

I am of the opinion that low level lights are a total waste of time despite virtually all modern cars having low level "fog lamps" which half the population seem to use as soon as it is dark. The problem is geometric, the lower the lamp, the nearer horizontal it needs to be aimed to illuminate even a relatively short distance in front of the car. This is not a problem, particularly for the unfortunate oncoming traffic, if all roads were level and had no brows etc, but as they have, the lower the light the more dazzle.
Have you ever seen modern rally cars with low level lights?

I'm sure that my idea of using full beams when I can in mist and fog (which is rare these days) will find a lot of detractors, but I maintain that I can spot objects quicker than if I use dip, and just I ignore the admitted reflection that you get off main beams.

Well, I completely agree with you there Alec. I never use fog lights (front) as I find them pretty useless. In fog I use mainly dipped beam but am usually switching from dipped to main beam as it can be helpful.

surely the minimum height for head lights was the reason that the Minor's lights were re-located above the wing from the front grille?

yes - to meet American rules...

As for fog lights only pointing at the road a short distance in front of the car - Surely that's the only logical place for front fog lights to point. That way you have more chance of seeing the kerb when you are in very thick fog (the pea soup variety).

The thicker the fog - the slower you should be driving therefore the less far ahead you require to see to be able to avoid an accident.

Travelling at high speed in fog (ie. when you are going so fast that dipped beam doesn't show you the road far enough ahead) is fine for BMW drivers with a death wish but I pity all the other sensible road users who get killed in the impending crash.

Since everyone seems to like BMW drivers so much, I give you http://www.bmwcarclubgb.co.uk/ . One of the star attractions? " Monday, 25th July 2005. This is the tenth aniversary of the first BMW Car Club Better Driving Day at Croft Circuit in Yorkshire." I offer no comment (for now).
a

rayofleamington wrote:

surely the minimum height for head lights was the reason that the Minor's lights were re-located above the wing from the front grille?

yes - to meet American rules....

they boogered up the mgb with rubber bumpers and raised height too...
perhaps we can insist that all of those bloomin' humvee things are modified for the UK market - any suggestions?

Give them a 1098 engine and 2 wheel drive?
a

those bloomin' humvee things are modified for the UK market - any suggestions?

1) Foglights that are on permanently, and ultra high intensity headlights
2) Special polarised glass that doesn't allow yellow/orange to pass through (making double yellow lines and junction checker boxes invisible)
3) no indicators
4) side windows that black out to hide all other road users on roundabouts, allowing you to ignore roundabout lanes without getting stressed about cutting people up.
5) disabled badge permanently etched onto the windscreen so you can use the only remaining parking spaces at the shops
6) big exhaust, loud stereo, and blue lights underneath and on the windscreen wipers

Tis is a little sad, but -

I was re-reading the regs, and tucked away in one of the "Schedules" (i.e. appendices), was the minimum height for headlights of 400 mm. That's about 16 inches.

I'd agree that lights fitted low down won't illuminate far objects - but driving in fog does'nt need distance. What I like with the fog lights on our Colt is that they give a flat wide beam that illuminates the road surface near the car. I've never found the spot type fog lights useful.

Using my Moggie daily, I have to thank my wife for my last birthday present - pair of Halogen headlamps for the Moggie! Now I can see at night!

Colin

Ah - if it's that sort of mods, how about compulsory bad lowering of suspension, so alignment is completely out and the car wanders between lanes and way over the whiteline when cornering? We mustn't forget the wonderful chromed baked bean tins on the end of the exhaust pipe(s) either - they just sound better, innit...

a (Morris Owners Group Miserable Old Git)

1) Foglights that are on permanently, and ultra high intensity headlights
2) Special polarised glass that doesn't allow yellow/orange to pass through (making double yellow lines and junction checker boxes invisible)
3) no indicators
4) side windows that black out to hide all other road users on roundabouts, allowing you to ignore roundabout lanes without getting stressed about cutting people up.
5) disabled badge permanently etched onto the windscreen so you can use the only remaining parking spaces at the shops
6) big exhaust, loud stereo, and blue lights underneath and on the windscreen wipers

how about compulsory bad lowering of suspension, so alignment is completely out and the car wanders between lanes and way over the whiteline when cornering? We mustn't forget the wonderful chromed baked bean tins on the end of the exhaust pipe(s) either - they just sound better, innit...

But... aren't they standard on the Humvee anyway? I mean, when I've seen people driving them / that general sort of vehicle they've been *driven* like they've got those mods...

oh! I forgot something

They should also alter the steering so it pulls to the right whenever there is more than 1 lane. That way they can join all their buddies in the queue in the far right lane, leaving room for everyone else to drive past on the left. ;-)

Hello Ray,
I totally agree that speed should balance vision, how slowly should you travel at a vision of 2 cars length, about all you will see with low level lights? Note my remark that fog is rare these days, at least in my locality.


Alec

Hello all,
I'll just add a point that perhaps I didn't make clear. I am not against fog lights at all, and agree with other contributors to this thread about where the beams should focus. To clarify what I said about low level lights is that as the vehicle pitches so the distance the focus point of the lamps in front of the vehicle alters is greater the lower the lamps. Unfortunately the oncoming traffic sees the effect of this far more than the users as the majority of users have these lights on when they are not needed so it does not matter to them where they are focussed.

I hope this has illuminated my point:-)

Alec

Agreed - the Citroen had low level driving lamps, and I was living in the country and working shifts when I owned it. They were invaluable at night, adding greatly to ones vision on the way home! My only arguement with them really is the halfwits who drive around with them on all the time, day or night.
a

slowly should you travel at a vision of 2 cars length, about all you will see with low level lights?

Very slowly!
The worst fog I remember was just over 20 years ago. The fog was so thick that I got out and walked on the kerb so my dad could see where it was (you couldn't even see the kerb with normal headlights)
Having driven in very thick fog on main roads you finally realise why they use green cats-eyes at the exists! That was the only way I could tell that my exit had started (could only see 2 car lengths ahead)

If you use the Lichfield exit to/from the A38, you'll find thick fog nearly all the time. There's a river nearby but there must be a few other things going on to make fog so frequent just in that spot.

Probably me being thick, but whats "humvee"?
Wanderinstar