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Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:08 pm
by jagnut66
It seems only a matter of time before working on your own car is as hedged around with law as DIY is becoming
If this happens 'They' have to catch you first.
And I've always taken the view that 'They' can go to hell!!
For the record, I'll take the same attitude if they do legislate against us driving our Classics!!
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:03 pm
by AntB
MarkyB wrote:wild mods are out
Why should this be though, and who decides what's "wild"?
my Swiss- German isn't too hot, but it's not great from what i know. even as much as swapping wheels to a different set of alloys from the same range of cars (e.g. a later model, like putting Mk5 wheels on a Mk3 Escort to give an example) is frowned upon from what i am aware of. this prevents you getting the equivalent of their MoT, which then prevents you from driving the car on the road.
but see my earlier point about the guidance and the current administration; we've just had total deregulation of pre- 1960 cars (ok, that's an exaggeration, with the exception of the requirements when selling a car) so it would be a hard point to argue to set additional legislation (following the issue of a what is only a guidance document) that all cars need stay bone standard in perpetuity.
MarkyB wrote:It seems only a matter of time before working on your own car is as hedged around with law as DIY is becoming
now that is an odd remark. my trade is as an architect. i can't think of anything that you do on a building site (and i mean a domestic build for a private client, rather than a development/ commercial build) that doesn't have the same legal requirements as at home if you DIY. what has had additional regulation in recent years is electrical and gas work and i, for one, would not want to end up buying a house where someone had done their own electrical and gas work prior to my purchase of the place
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:23 pm
by rogerowen
Hmmm. I not only do all my own car maintenance, but also all the work that needs doing to my house -and this includes electrical, plumbing and oil fired boiler maintenance. All for the simple reason that I could not afford to use the services of professional trades people and businesses. Sign of the times?
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:15 pm
by MarkyB
i can't think of anything that you do on a building site that doesn't have the same legal requirements as at home if you DIY.
Newsflash for you, I've worked on commercial building sites and don't have any qualifications in that area, mostly labouring but a fair amount of carpentry too.
I wired and plumbed the house I've lived in for the past 30 odd years and although it might not appeal to you no problems so far
I'm with rogerowen on this, it isn't rocket science, anyone practical with a bit of common sense could do it.
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:45 pm
by AntB
well if anyone can do it, best just let everyone get on with it then!
oh, until it breaks and someone gets hurt. can't have people getting hurt can we.
i've a brilliant idea, let's put together some legislation so just not anyone can do it, problem solved! but we need to let people work out their own legislation based on their own more localised criteria, so we'll start with just a guidance document.
oh....
so i think we've probably got to why this guidance document has been issued.
probably best we just have the federation of historic motor vehicle clubs keep on top of it, as they are the people involved in the consultation and are in touch with all the relevant marques' clubs. no need for revolution yet i hope ;)
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:42 pm
by rogerowen
Ant, wonder if you might be missing the point here. We (the Royal One, of course) - don't actually want this legislation - quite happy as we are, thank you very much. If I decide to weld up my car but forget to put my welding helmet on and get 'Arc-Eye' - surely that's my decision - and my problem. Can't be bothered to use axle stands and car falls on me? Again - my problem. Our daily lives are full of 'Risk Assesment' - it's a natural instict to avoid personal accident, I personally don't think I need over-zealous H&S executive to offer me protection advise
(or tell me 'Told you so'). Those that don't feel naturally competent to undertake certain tasks usually dont! Natural Self Preservation Fact!
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:26 pm
by AntB
rogerowen wrote:Those that don't feel naturally competent to undertake certain tasks usually dont!
and here's an example of what happens when they do, when they can't properly judge their own competency
sorry, but your argument doesn't hold muster, ditto for the DIY side of your point. this is why people end up legislating in the first place.
anyway, for the umpty- umpth time, best wait until something is proposed that relates directly to the use of historic vehicles on UK roads, there's actually nothing to discuss yet.
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:20 pm
by rogerowen
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:05 pm
by AntB
link to the FBHVC website and their report on what is to happen
from the looks of their reporting, all that is proposed is a choice as to whether or not a 'historic vehicle' (that is one over 30 years old- the criteria regarding this are also described- and in completely standard condition still) meets the criteria for needing to be tested.
unless i have misread this it is actually more along the lines of MoT exemption, not this draconian ban on anyone being allowed to have fun ever, that people seem to be whipping this up into.
i think everyone needs to have a good read of this update from the FBHVC ;)
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:35 am
by rogerowen
Thanks Ant, think most of us now have this link and have read it by now.
My car for one will not pass the criteria - I have a 1098 gearbox installed (stronger than the original 948), I have an 'after market' anti-roll bar installed (to improve road holding), the rear suspension has been modified to accomodate rear telescopic dampers (again, to improve road handling), an after market electric winscreen washer has been installed - again, non-standard, an in-line fuel filter, tyres are radial rather than the original cross-ply type and are 155 as opposed to 145. Seat belts (again, non-original standard have been fitted, Un-leaded cylinder head, later model heater unit to improve demisting, additional overtaking mirror, fibre-glass wings (well, three of them), halogen headlight conversion, flashing indicators to replace the hard to see original traficators (in modern traffic terms) ............................. Oh, and I'm considering up-grading the front 7" drum brakes to 8", an after-market bulk-head mounted brake fluid resevoir, and maybe also fitting a brake servo unit.
Apart from the wings, all safety issues, no 6.3 litre Chevy V8 (yet)....... Get my drift?
My car, as many other members cars will be classified as non-original - this surely is a cause for concern!
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:00 am
by LouiseM
rogerowen wrote: My car for one will not pass the criteria
How do you know?
The criteria for the UK has not been decided yet as it is up to each member state to interpret what "substantial changes in the technical characteristics" means, and discussions are ongoing.
I doubt very much that fitting radial tyres, seatbelts, unleaded head, mirrors, screenwasher, etc would be deemed as "substantial changes in the technical characteristics" of a Minor, particularly as the purpose of the roadworthiness testing is to improve road safety. Even if a vehicle is unable to meet the criteria it will be deemed subject to testing, but not automatically banned from the roads.
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:06 am
by rogerowen
Indeed, how do we know? What ever the outcome, it won't really make a difference to me. In my mind the whole thing is just a waste of money.
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:08 pm
by rayofleamington
I'm not sure that the Gresham Land Rover story (despite being terrible) is relevant to the non-MOT debate.
He had an MOT... but ignored safety e.g. drivers seat was totally loose and front brakes were different side to side.
His MOT station was investigated but not prosecuted.
The accident was caused by the failed rear suspension link mounting. If this was an isolated fault people would have sympathy for the driver, but some guy driving a self made & 'self maintained' deathtrap is a different story, especially as he was speeding on a single track road.
I had a rear spring mounting (front hanger) fail on a country road on a traveller. It was not a nice experience as the rear axle started steering during a corner.
However I had noticed the previous owner's very poor 'patch' next to the hanger and it had worried me despite passing an MOT - and regardless of MOT it was my fault for not getting it sorted as 'deep down' I knew better.
I had never driven it enthusiastically with passengers & avoided taking kids in it as my subconscious didn't like it.
As I've got older and marginally more mature I don't take kids in a car without them having a seatbelt (and child seat if appropriate). Adults get to chose if they get in a car - for youngsters we make the choices for them.
I don't like being stopped from doing a lot of household work - however without rules and regulations, anyone could do anything, and as we value life so dearly most people don't like that idea! Whatever colour party the politicians are in, it's usually employers (companies) that want the trade persons to have qualifications, to protect the company from being sued.
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:46 pm
by AntB
rayofleamington wrote:I'm not sure that the Gresham Land Rover story (despite being terrible) is relevant to the non-MOT debate.
i wasn't debating anything to do with the MoT, or trying to make that point with that example
rayofleamington wrote:I don't like being stopped from doing a lot of household work - however without rules and regulations, anyone could do anything, and as we value life so dearly most people don't like that idea! Whatever colour party the politicians are in, it's usually employers (companies) that want the trade persons to have qualifications, to protect the company from being sued.
this was the point i was making about the Gresham Land Rover
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:52 pm
by AntB
LouiseM wrote:rogerowen wrote: My car for one will not pass the criteria
How do you know?
The criteria for the UK has not been decided yet as it is up to each member state to interpret what "substantial changes in the technical characteristics" means, and discussions are ongoing.
i think someone else posted something like that Louise, hold on let me check ;)
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:09 pm
by LouiseM
Yes, and I think someone also re-posted the link to the FHBVC site too
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:23 pm
by MarkyB
The Gresham Land Rover is rather a red herring really, how many more stories of death and destruction brought on by amateur car fixers can you find?
Making laws doesn't actually stop things happening, no matter how how smugly politicians claim to have sorted out some issue.
Stupidity can't be legislated against nor can criminality.
I was born in the mid fifties, played in the street, went to school under my own steam and tinkered with stuff to my hearts content.
The whole "thou shalt not" nanny state thing I find irritating to put it mildly.
With or without the EU the direction things are going is pretty clear, you may only do things that you have a paper qualification for, anything else could possibly be dangerous so it must be done for you by a company employing qualified technicians.
You can work, eat, sleep, shop and watch TV. The government will stop you doing anything dangerous
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:44 pm
by AntB
LouiseM wrote:Yes, and I think someone also re-posted the link to the FHBVC site too
apparently everyone's read it, so they know exactly what the proposal is, which i find odd, as this thread is on its third page now......
and the FHBVC link is only about a proposal, not a set of already agreed rules.
i don't know if anyone mentioned that?
MarkyB wrote:I was born in the mid fifties, played in the street, went to school under my own steam and tinkered with stuff to my hearts content.
The whole "thou shalt not" nanny state thing I find irritating to put it mildly.
i'm a bit younger, but thankfully i was raised in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road*, so i know where you're coming from
*150 of us there were
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:10 pm
by philthehill
A bit more EU proposed legislation to chew the fat over:-
EU secret plan to fit 'remote stopping devices to all cars' that would be fitted to all cars and allow the police to disable vehicles at the flick of a switch.
For further details see todays Daily Telegraph 30th Jan 2014, page 10.
Right above the picture of Sir Malcolm Campbell's Bluebird.
Re: EU reaches decision on road worthiness testing
Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:43 pm
by POMMReg
AntB wrote:LouiseM wrote:Yes, and I think someone also re-posted the link to the FHBVC site too
apparently everyone's read it, so they know exactly what the proposal is, which i find odd, as this thread is on its third page now......
and the FHBVC link is only about a proposal, not a set of already agreed rules.
i don't know if anyone mentioned that?
MarkyB wrote:I was born in the mid fifties, played in the street, went to school under my own steam and tinkered with stuff to my hearts content.
The whole "thou shalt not" nanny state thing I find irritating to put it mildly.
i'm a bit younger, but thankfully i was raised in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road*, so i know where you're coming from
SHOEBOX?! You were lucky!!!
*150 of us there were